Why do you play a double neck versus universal?

Terry McBurney · Post by **Terry McBurney** » 14 Mar 2003 9:33 am

I have read Reece Anderson's article on the viability of the universal psg.

Why do you play a double neck rather than a universal? Is the universal for the more advanced player?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 14 Mar 2003 10:07 am

Terry, did you have to buy that article from Reece, or is it available free somewhere?

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 14 Mar 2003 10:19 am

Go to LINKS on this Forum and then click on Articles and there is Reeces' article called The Future of the Steel. NO CHARGE !

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 14 Mar 2003 10:21 am

I tried two different Universals and decided they weren't for me, partly because of playing D-12's for 30+ years.

* It was uncomfortable holding a knee lever to play 6th type tunes.

*With the knee lever engaged, I was limited to the number of other knee levers I had access to.

* I couldn't add all the changes I'm used to due to space and changer limitations.

* I didn't like the fact that I would have had to change the keys for tunes I used to play with open strings. (Ever tried telling a guitar, fiddle, and piano player to play Raisin' The Dickins in C#?)

* I use and depend on the 9th string D for a lot of chords and licks.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Mar 2003 10:24 am

Here it is:
http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm

No, the universal is not really for the "more advanced" player. The D-10 and U-12 are both used by players at all levels.

Most people play D-10 because it's more traditional, I think. Also, it makes a clearer distinction between the two most popular pedal steel styles: "country" and "swing".

I don't play universal (I play extended E9th on my S-12), but I use my D-10 on country gigs for those reasons. It looks very traditional, and when I switch to the back neck for a western swing tune, none of the Nashville licks will creep in.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
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Billy Easton · Post by **Billy Easton** » 14 Mar 2003 11:03 am

Although I am not proficient on the Universal tuning, I did briefly try one. I have played a D10 since 1962. While the Universal tuning concept is efficient, to my ear, it seems to compromise both the C6th and E9th. The inherent sounds of each tuning are not the same. On a Universal tuning, you have but 1 pickup, trying to best amplify both the E9th and C6th sounds. In my opinion, the Universal doesn't cut it for me. With all that said, I immensely enjoy listening to Reece Anderson, Jeff Newman, David Wright, his brother Joe,

, and others who use that set up. But for me, it just doesn't work. Your mileage may vary.[This message was edited by Billy Easton on 14 March 2003 at 11:04 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 14 Mar 2003 11:14 am

The steel guitar had migrated to multi neck instruments by the time pedals first came into being. While there were triple and even quad necks available the overwhelming majority were double necks.

As such the two most popular tunings were C6 and and an E based tuning such as E7 or E13th. When Bud Isaacs added a lone pedal to "pull" his E tuning to an A tuning, (on his E neck), it quickly changed the steel guitar world forever.

IMO had there been NO multi necks at that time, ie, IF Bud had created a universal pedal steel, instead of what he did, the universal would be standard today and multi necks would never have surfaced.

There is NO viable argument that would pass the test other than a low "DC" factor* that would justify a multineck evolving IF pedals had been first.

In fact, I will go one step further and say that if the universal had been first, the "country/jazz" neck stigma would not have relegated our instrument; and sooo stifled it in the musical world.

carl

* DC factor= "Detests Change".

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 14 March 2003 at 11:15 AM.][This message was edited by C Dixon on 14 March 2003 at 11:16 AM.]

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 14 Mar 2003 1:02 pm

Billy E....I have a tone control built into my Goodrich pedal with a control knob on the right side and a toe switch on the top left side which is easily accessible.

Presetting the tone control on the volume pedal and having the ability to instantly switch it to go direct to the amp, instantly provides the inherent sounds of both tunings.

There are those who are uncomfortable holding the knee lever while playing 6th changes.

As for me, I have a different mindset in that I don't perceive it as being another tuning when the knee lever (lowered E's) is engaged. I go in and out of both tunings continously and just consider the entire steel guitar like one would think of a piano, in that it does not have a specific tuning. It never even enters my mind I'm going from one tuning to another. to me its just part of the musical process.

I don't have that mindset when playing any other knee lever, so I can see no reason for me to think of the knee lever which loweres the E's any differently than any other knee lever. My 2 cents worth and mileage may vary dramatically.

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 14 Mar 2003 4:12 pm

Terry, I can't respond to your question because I've never played a double neck but I will make a suggestion. Since it appears you are just starting out on steel I would strongly suggest that if you have any desire to ever play swing or jazz that you find or have someone help you find a good S-12 universal and since Reece is pretty close by, go to him and let him get you on the right track from the get go. He will get your mind thinking in the right direction from the start. To me this is probably the most important thing a starting player should do!!

Most double neck players I've heard talk about the universal tuning have never combined the tunings in their mind. They usually always try to keep the two tunings seperate in their mind which I think is the biggest mistake of learning the universal tuning.

I realize most of the double neck players will disagree with this but thank God we live in a place we can all have a different opinion!!

Terry McBurney · Post by **Terry McBurney** » 14 Mar 2003 5:40 pm

That is an excellent idea.

Yes, I am new...and committed to do it right. Although I have not met Reece, I did enjoy his music in Dallas last weekend. And, I could tell he is a professional and a man of high principle.

I am amazed at the depth of knowledge that is "out in the field"...I have a lot to learn.

Once I closed up the shop this evening, I spent an hour practicing scales, etc...trying to coordinate my right hand and my left hand...it does the soul good. Still do not want anyone listening to me but I do know the day will come when the steel produces what I am hearing inside my head.

Thanks to everyone who has responded.

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 14 Mar 2003 6:26 pm

...I do know the day will come when the steel produces what I am hearing inside my head.

What a fabulous attitude. I need to get to thinking like that. I still wonder if even my scale exercises will ever be "listenable".

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 14 Mar 2003 6:46 pm

Well, the real answer, for me, is simply a historical one. Because when I was getting started, there were no universal teachers around me, and just about all the instructional material was for E9, and I wasn't interested in C6 back then anyway, and I couldn't afford anything but a cheap S-10 E9. Four good reasons to start on E9. Once I got to be reasonably competent at E9 and was gigging regularly, I wanted to expand musically but didn't want to suffer any setback, especially on gigs, by switching to a different (universal) tuning. So I added the C6 neck, and could still play everything I knew on E9, without any loss of competence, while gradually coming up to speed on C6.

I suspect many D-10 players probably went through the same thing and that's how a lot of us ended up on D-10s. It may not be the best reason in the world but, hey, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 14 Mar 2003 8:05 pm

Most of us try to emulate our heroes, and most of my heroes play double necks.

When we hear a neat or hot lick, at least we can think that it can be played on our guitar.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 14 Mar 2003 8:38 pm

Having started playing pedals back in 1956 with my new Bud Issacs inspired Bigsby quad with six pedals...........I became used to the "ring" or "sound" of playing on the first four strings for most of my melody work. My Jerry Byrd training likewise tuned my ear to the ring of those first four strings (gages).
I could never adjust to playing down on the
lower, heavy gage strings of a Universal tuning. It's a personal "EAR" thingy with me.
I've heard any number of players using them and they all SOUND great; I just could never adjust to playing one.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 14 Mar 2003 9:24 pm

I have played both D10's and S12's.Pros and cons on both.

I prefer the tuning that Buddy Emmons has posted on this forum that he said he would play if he was starting out today. E6-E13 on a Single 12 guitar..

There would be no need to learn different bar positions as with E9/B6. As Jim Smith pointed out.

I don't expect anything to change at this point in time. There is too much invested in steels and Lesson material on the status quo today.

But I see , sometime in the future, When someone comes out with a good course on E6-E13 with Both the Country E9 sounds and the C6 jazz sounds, and a celebrity starts playing it, then the switch will come.

It will then be just music, with one tuning to play everything on. With no lock or holding in a knee lever like E9/B6....al

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 14 March 2003 at 09:30 PM.]

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 15 Mar 2003 5:40 am

I spent 20 couple years playing the S-12 Universal steels, I switched back to the D-10's just for the 'hell' of it!! After playing S-12U [8+6] that long, it was a bit of a challenge for me, but I soon fell in love with that 9th string on E9th, specially for speed picking and not having to hold a lever to get that note. One guitar I had [Kline] kept breaking the pull rod at the changer so I had to lower the 8th string down to a 'D' note on that Universal. I also have found that I like the open notes & find many uses for them on the C6th 10 string tuning and also having the 'D' note on top without having to reach out over another string like you do on the universal to get that note. I think the open C6th notes are much more useful in a band situation. I know my old lead guitar players hated playing the steel guitar rag in Eb & B, as opposed to E & C on the C6th tuning. I think the universal is ok, but that old D-10 is going to be the 'Real Universal Standard' in my book!!
Hey, hope I didn't hurt anyones feelings with this, this is just my opinion, no harm intended!!

Ernie Pollock http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75

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Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 15 Mar 2003 9:42 am

My reason for playing a universal is similar to Cohen's reason for playing a D-10. I played a show with Reece early on in my playing career and I loved the ease with which he combined a diatonic/major/minor sound with a more closely voiced, 'jazzier'/'swingier' sound. He wrote his tuning on a bar napkin and I used a variation of his Bb6 tuning for a while, raised it to B6, then raised the D#'s to E and ended up with the same thing Jeff Newman began playing and teaching a year or so later. (the story's a bit longer and more complicated than that, but it serves this purpose) So, basically, my personal playing history is the main reason for me. I've tried playing a D-10 and can't express myself on that configuration as easily. So, the U-12 is ME, you gotta find out what's YOU.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 15 Mar 2003 9:55 am

Wow, as usual, Carl throws in a zinger:

I will go one step further and say that if the universal had been first, the "country/jazz" neck stigma would not have relegated our instrument; and sooo stifled it in the musical world.

I had never thought about this angle on the "stifled steel" enigma. I think he really has something there...
My learning curve on E9/C6 is exactly the same as in Jim Cohen's post- and for me, I really enjoy looking at the two necks as separate and different instruments, where I visualize and approach them as such. I love a lot of the universal playing I've seen and heard, but I prefer the distinction between most folks' E9th and C6 stylings, a great example being the differences in phrasing and touch between Curly Chalker's approach to the two necks. Much the same way I love the distinction between Don Helms' non pedal playing and Joaquin Murphey's. Some of that's in the man, some's in the tuning!

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C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 15 Mar 2003 10:12 am

Having First learned musical theory and THEN the steel it always bothered me about EVERY tuning I knew of; was quite limited on a steel guitar.

When I got my first pedal steel, a Fender 400 with 6 pedals and no knee levers, it further exacerbated my feelings. "Too limited", "I cannot get chords that are standard and easily available to most other muical instruments.

When I migrated to a D-10, it became EVEN worse and bothered me for over 30 yrs. I still question; "why do I have do drop everything and change necks to get certain voicings only to have to drop everything and switch back to get still other voicings?"

The more I thought about it, the more I realized that there must be a universal tuning that would satisfy all requirements. Sadly, I could find NO tuning that met those conditions.

But one night I hit on something after almost 40 yrs of studying copedent, I hit on one that seemed very promising. Dubious, I studied this copedent for several years playing tunes in my head; trying to see IF there was something I could NOT do that I wanted to do. Fortunately, in every case this tuning satisfied me in every aspect.

So I ordered a U-12 with this tuning and a guitar built that would allow me to "finish" my dream. Unfortunately, because of one serious flaw ("cabinet drop" and the problem all Universals have with double and single changes not coming back true) I had to shelve my plans for several years.

Thank my Precious Savior, both of these problem have been solved. At this moment Mitsuo Fujii is milling an entire new tail stock and nut assembly (for me) that will incorporate his "counterforce invention". (He had previously solved the latter problem mentioned above).

We are in almost daily email contact about it along with drawings and pictures of the progress. I am once again excited. And I am busy making full scale drawings and building the assemblies necessary to have my dream tuning.

I am very excited about this. Time will tell if all my ideas will be what I have wanted. But if it all goes according to the way I feel it will, I will have a PSG that will permit EVERY change (that I know of) on ONE 12 srring neck with 6 pedals and 8 knee levers. And I can't waite.

Thank God for a person like Mistuo who works tirelessly and with never a "no" to help his present AND past customers.

In my book THIS is the kind of company that all should try to emulate. Some do. Sadly, some don't.

carl

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Mar 2003 1:55 pm

I play a D10. It's the most popular among professionals, by far (and has been for the last 40 or so years). I also play a totally unique setup, which no one else in the world uses. So, I'm both a "follower", and a "maverick" as well.

Since most of my playing is live backup work, it's very handy to have another "intact" neck to play whenevr I break a string! Also, I think that when you try to combine both tunings, you lose a little of each. (I think Emmons once said that, too.)

But...to each his own.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 15 Mar 2003 2:09 pm

Jim Cohen's post saved me giving my reasons for playing a D10 - ditto!

(Plus - I think they look cooler!

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Roger Rettig

Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 15 Mar 2003 2:35 pm

Terry, I have had a Universal and Doubleneck steel. I prefer a doubleneck myself. The Universal had a E9th/B6th tuning which required holding in the lever that drops the E strings while playing. There certainly is nothing wrong with that concept but I have always watched what most pros use, whether is be a guitar or amp. One thing I have found is that the pros do not play junk guitars or amps. One advantage to the Universal is that the guitar is lighter in weight. I would submit that you sit down and play one for some time if possible before you purchase anything...Paul

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 15 Mar 2003 3:50 pm

I have played a D-10 for 23 years now. The reason I don't go the universal route: 1) I would have to relearn what I already know, (read relearn the string grips)
2)
As has been previously stated: It's an ear thing I don't think the timbre of the sound is correct on a Universal tuning, as the string guages are usually lighter than on a D-10.

#3> If I was to start out today, I do think I would probably go Universal (usually a lighter guitar).

I have NO problem with guys that like the Universal. It's just not for me. I would rather spend my time learning new things than relearning old things. JMO

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 15 Mar 2003 5:41 pm

I started on a single neck E9. Then I got a Universal. I played U12 for 5 years or so. Then I ran into to many problems that are inherent to the U12 and switched to a D10.

I have no particular interest in the idiomatic roles associated with the tunings.

U12 problems:
1. Intonation. I tune beats out. To many compromises in the U12.
2. Tone. Side by side a/b testing of the same brand of steel. D10 is much better to my ear.
3.Complexity. The D10 has everything laying there all nice and ready to play without overlaying extra layers of pedals.
(as in the E lever to play the B6 side.)
4. There are more possible set up variations with a D10. Plus you can easily change something on one neck without screwing up the other.

Another trend I see with U12 players is that without a solid background in the C6 tuning often it is treated as an extended E9. The players end up sounding weak because they are imitating what was done on a D10 and it doesn't end up sounding quite right.

Now with all that I must add that there are some fantastic U12 players that are way better than I'll ever be. They have no problem expressing music with there tuning. It works for them and that is great.
I am happy with my current D10 set up. I actually don't think it makes much difference what tuning you play. If you want to play well you will need to practice alot.

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 15 March 2003 at 05:56 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 15 Mar 2003 10:56 pm

Surprisingly, Bob, I agree with ALMOST everything you say. You probably have a better ear than I, but I can tolerate the tuning compromises inherent in a 'superimposed' tuning. I disagree somewhat on the tone issue. I've had steel players assume that my cd was done on a double neck and have never had tone problems. It's kinda subjective, I think. BUT, I will agree that builders design and build 12-strings starting with 10-strings. I'm not aware of a builder who, for example, uses a larger diameter changer axle when extending the length by 16%. I do believe that various detuning issues (which may or may not be really perceptible) are notoriously worse on 12-strings and worse yet on 14-strings.

I consider learning two somewhat unrelated tunings much more complex than relating the sixth tuning changes to something you are used to. And I can play most of the Black Album C6 instrumentals, pretty much note for note and have yet to find a passage I can't play on my setup despite the fact that I have no 9th string D.

Since two necks can have their own knee levers and pedals, you are absolutely right that a wider variety and number of changes are available on a D-10, but I don't see that as a limitation either. I have everything I need to play what I hear (within reasonable limits).

And I CERTAINLY agree with you that among the ranks of universal players are some excellent musicians. Reece Anderson, Julian Tharpe, and several others come to mind.

So I just basically took the other fork in the road and believe that there's great music whichever you choose.

I don't think I've ever agreed with you on so many points.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 15 March 2003 at 11:00 PM.]