B to Bb change

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 19 Mar 2003 12:02 pm

From time to time this change is discussed on this forum. I love this change and would NOT want to be without it. IN fact on a U-12, it is absolutely necessary.

In reading a number of posts on this change I have noted something that IMO needs some explaining. And that is the use of the "split" feature with the A pedal.

And while this is a great split, the facts of the matter are, it simply will NOT work correctly; IF, the player tunes JI. The reason for this is when one tunes JI, the C# (5th and 10th strings with the A pedal) do NOT pull the changer finger sharp enough to allow PSG "split" feature to allow the Bb to be brought in tune.

I have tried this on every PSG I have owned and it simply won't work. What you have is the following two scenarios:

1. IF you get the "split" in tune, you can't tune the Bb. It ends up too sharp. And there is NO provision for flatting it futher using the standard split screw or rod.

2. IF you tune the Bb in tune, You can't get the split in tune. The C note becomes too flat. And cannot be brought in tune UNLESS the above happens.

NOW, if you tune straight 440 or closer to it than JI, then it WILL work. But it won't work IMO if you tune JI.

Or if it does on your guitar, I would love to see it.

carl

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 19 Mar 2003 1:08 pm

What is the JI number for C? I've always tuned it to 440 and the Bb to around 436. With the two rod method on my Dekley it tunes and works fine.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 19 Mar 2003 2:12 pm

.[This message was edited by C Dixon on 19 March 2003 at 02:16 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 19 Mar 2003 2:45 pm

Carl, it works great on the Zum steel. You can tune A# and C independently to ET, JI, or pretty much any way you like.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 19 Mar 2003 8:08 pm

The split works great on my Fessies. Plenty of adjustment up and down.

Not so easy on my push-pull however.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 20 Mar 2003 5:32 am

Hey Carl,
I tune the B string to 440 on my BMI, the B to C# raise to 438 and the B to Bb lower to 438 and it's OK and sounds in tune...JH

------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 20 Mar 2003 5:45 am

I'd still like to know what the JI frequency, number, or cents flat is considered to be for C. I tune my C#'s to 436-438, A#'s to 435-438, and my C's to 440. I use the two rod split on my Dekley and both strings tune with no problem. I can visualize having trouble tuning the split if the C is very flat to 440 though.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 20 Mar 2003 8:41 am

Jim,
The question is in what key.
(someone posted the chart and I printed it out, but I'm too lazy to search)

In E, C is the 5# which is +14 (NP Pos)
In A, C is the 3b which is +16 (1/2A+B Pos)
In B, C is the 2b which is -30 (Eb lever Pos)
In C#, C is the 7 which is -12 (1/2A+F Pos)

THE REAL KICKER is that the 5b is -31 (relative to E)
I tune Bb to about -8 because the 5b (e.g., E9b5) is a dissonant chord so it sounds out even when it's in.

Without a boatload of compensators it's NEVER gonna be in tune with all. SO, the key is to compromise among the ones you use the most and are the most noticeable.
I do like Jerry and tune Bb slightly flat a cycle or two (4-8 cents or so) and tune the split close to straight up or even a hair sharp.

The pedal steel players mantra: TUNING IS A COMPROMISE.

There are a BUNCH of right answers. I'm in tune when the hair on the back of my neck doesn't stand on end.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

rhcarden · Post by **rhcarden** » 20 Mar 2003 9:51 am

Carl,
I have a set-up that works without a split. I pull string 5 and 10 to C with a knee lever. I have the Bb lower (string 5 only) on pedal 4. I use the Bb (pedal 4) with two Knee levers (E's lowered to D# and 9th string lowered to C#). I also use it with the G#'s pulled to A (pedal 3).

------------------
Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Mar 2003 11:31 am

I've always tuned the C note pretty sharp, because I figure that it has to work against a 3rd of E. In theory, if you tune the E to 0 cents, the C should be +15.6 cents in JI. In practice, the E will probably suffer a bit of cabinet drop. So the rule of thumb would be to add 15 cents to the value of E with the pedal(s) engaged.

The Bb note (actually A#) is the 3rd of F#. People have different approaches to the F# dilemma, but the bottom line here is that the A# should be tuned 15 cents flat of the F#. Since it's often used as a major 7th in the B6 position, I'd recommend tuning it with the E's lowered to accomodate any "cabinet raise" that might be occurring.

I see Carl's point, though. The typical split tuning mechanism, which involves a stop against the lower finger, makes it difficult if not impossible to tune both of these notes.

Maybe adding a lower rod to the A pedal would help. Have you tried that, Carl? (Or maybe my thinking is reversed, and it should be a raise rod on the lever.)

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Mar 2003 11:35 am

(I'm so full of crap!

)

Somebody point out the error of my thinking, okay?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Mar 2003 11:56 am

I have tried everything I know and I simply cannot tune the C note (using the split) AND tune the Bb. Here is what happens; the Bb ends up too sharp. And the "split" arrangement ONLY works when you end up with the lowest note too flat. So it can be sharpened to make it in tune.

After carefully thinking about it, I believe you are NOT tuning your C#'s as flat as I do. This because I tune the C# by using harmonics. NOT by how it sounds. This because I do not play in a band.

I believe, if I checked any one of your guitars, your C# would be considerably sharp of mine. This can be the ONLY reason my brain can rationalize why it works for you.

Anyway thanks for contributing to this thread,

God bless you all,

carl

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 20 Mar 2003 12:06 pm

Since half-pedaling the B-C# pedal is such a basic skill,I don't see the point of using the split - even if it works.Isn't it kinda wasted energy,ergonomically speaking?

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 20 Mar 2003 12:47 pm

If I understood the problem correctly...
Since the C# will become C with the B-Bb lower before the B-Bb lower actually reaches "Bb" the solution would seem to be to add another pullrod to the Apedal and slightly split tune the C# note (compensating for a C# that would be too high without that little lower added) This would allow for the B-Bb lever to have a longer throw and then the Bb note can be tuned by the split tuning screw ( which actually restricts the note to be lowered any further. )

Bengt[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 20 March 2003 at 12:50 PM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 20 Mar 2003 12:54 pm

Or the other way around if it is easier to understand.
Tune the B-Bb lower first.
If the Csplit comes out flat, tune the raise on the Apedal until the Cnote is correct.
Now the C# alone will be to high so that is why it is neccesary to install a pullrod to lower it slighly so the C# will be in tune.

Bengt

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Mar 2003 3:44 pm

What Bengt said. That's what I was trying to say.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Mar 2003 5:23 pm

Bengt,

I never thought of this. And it might just do the trick.

Michael,

I do half pedal the A pedal and have for years. But I have never been happly with the lack of consistency doing it. This happens also on using the half stop on the 2nd string. Which I no longer have. I do it with separate knee levers on opposite knees.

While I CAN half pedal the A pedal and get it fairly close; if I am using it by itself; OR with the B pedal, I have NEVER been able to get it right IF, I used it with the lever that lowers the E's or with the B pedal also. I like this change for that nice diminished on strings 4, 5 and 6. A very needed dim I might add, IMO.

So a split would work perfectly in this case IF I could get the split in tune.

carl

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 21 Mar 2003 5:40 pm

Another way to get the dim chord on 4 5 6 and even 7 & 8 is to combine the pedal that raise 5 & 6 to C# & A# is to combine it w a F# - G on 7th string. One move I use on my S12.
Or using the 7th string as root note together w 5 & 6 up a whole note gives a dom7th on 7 6 5 4, w E's-Eb = maj6, w/E's-F maj7, w/7 F#-G dim, or A+B min7 or A+B+ E's-Eb min6th or A+Bsplit B-Bb m7b5.

Finding voicings that use 7th string as root will open up lots of new chord positons for both S10 and s12 players and you will also get used to using string 1 & 2. Has really helped me cut down on position shifts w the bar so I can play more chords in one position.

Bengt[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 21 March 2003 at 05:41 PM.]