Graduated nut rollers, swapping between brands?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 11 Mar 2003 7:36 am

Here are the measurements for the rollers on my guitars (crudely measured with a ruler, not precision measured with calipers).

Emmons '80s P/P 12-string ext. E9:
roller width 1/8", roller diameter 5/16", string groove 1/32" (strings 1-10) and 1/16" (strings 11 and 12)), axle diameter 1/16"

Fessenden 2000 S12U:
roller width 1/8", roller diameter 5/16", string groove 3/64", axle diameter 3/32"

If others will post the roller measurements for their guitar(s) I'll put them all in a table so we can hopefully mix and match our own custom sets from ready made rollers from the various pedal steel manufacturers.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 11 March 2003 at 07:47 AM.][This message was edited by David Doggett on 11 March 2003 at 04:50 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 Mar 2003 7:46 am

^Bump^ 'Lo? Innybuddy out there?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 Mar 2003 7:13 am

^Bump^ again

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 14 Mar 2003 6:39 am

I have e-mailed 10 PSG manufacturers asking for the measurements of their nut rollers. When I get some answers I'll post them here. However, the first few to respond didn't give any measurements and just guessed their rollers wouldn't fit other guitars - in other words they didn't want to take the time. Therefore, it would be helpful if people would just measure the rollers on their guitar, particularly if some of them are guaged, as they are on Emmons and Zums, so we can see which brands are compatible. We need the roller width, diameter, string groove width, and the axle diameter.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 15 Mar 2003 7:52 am

^Bump^

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 15 Mar 2003 11:55 pm

^Bump^

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 Mar 2003 4:04 pm

Graduated nut rollers....
I keep getting this picture of educated squirls....in pasteboard hats.

Joe Delaronde · Post by **Joe Delaronde** » 16 Mar 2003 10:12 pm

I machined string grooves for my keyless tuner I'm installing on my steel. I do not use individual rollers, but like Chas Smith mention a few threads back, the depth is the heigth of the triangle formed around the string diameter. I simply laid this out with my Cad program, measured the depths of each string, and machined them to that depth. The strings all seat in the V groove, and are all flat to the top of the roller, with no string rattle.

If someone wants the depth measurements, email me. However, the V groove cutting tool must be sharpened to a very sharp point, else the .011 string will rattle. I have the depths for any gauged string.

Joe

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 17 Mar 2003 12:13 am

Well,
I've spent about the last two hours going over this thread. I'll share my thoughts and experiences with you. I'm not doing this to argue or have debate. I'm just gonna' tell you guys how it is and let y'all do the arguing and debating.
To start with, I'm not an engineer and I don't know much of the complicated math. But, I do know what works and what don't and most of what's in between those two points.
I personally prefer a "roller nut" without any groove. If I do have one that's grooved (and I do on my Emmons PP at this time), I prefer the V groove. I've had literally thoushands of grooved roller nuts made for just about every brand of guitar you can think of. Both the U groove and the V groove.
I never cared for the U as much as I did the V. As a "guaged set" it's probably better than a "non guaged set" of any kind.
As some of you may know, I've been tinkering with producing a double changer push pull for several years now. Without discussing any of the other many problems that come with that concept (that is the manufacturing end of it), I promise you that you have to deal "up close and personal" with the roller issue.....on both ends of the guitar. I, like Carl, will not settle for anything less than level at the nut. It's a little more time consuming to accomplish this, but it's certainly not "rocket science".
Assuming that none of us have "adjustable" heights on our roller nuts (or bridges as far as that's concerned), then the starting point has to be and MUST be the gagues of strings you use. This calls on your part to know and be settled to within a thousandth's or two of the gagues in your sets. The person making the roller nut has to know this too.
Now comes yet another situation to consider. What to make them out of. I've tried just about everything from soft aluminum, harder aluminums, brass, bronze, verious forms of plastic, acrilic, glass and different grades of steel. Each has their own characteristics. Some good to some ears and some not.
And BTW, I forget who it was that said "make me a set for $30,,,,,,",,,,,Most of my experiences to get a really close tolerance have been closer to $10 per roller. The special roller inserts for my double changer guitar is closer to $25 per insert unless I want to have about a couple of thousand or more made at one time. Then it comes down closer to $15 per unit.)(and I don't have that kind of money just laying around).
Now, you have to consider the amount of angle that the string comes off of the roller. I tried the straight approach (no angle at all) and with hardly no down pressure from the string to the surface of the roller (especially the completely flat roller,,,,no grooves) and found a significant loss of sustain as well as a different kind of "string buzz" along with the problem of the string wanting to drift across the roller surface from side to side on the flat rollers. This was no good and was a very expensive lesson to learn. I have found that there seems to be an acceptable "envelope" of between 3 and 7 degrees down angle after the string crosses the roller. I'm still experimenting with this part of the development. I even made up a prototype that had no rollers or bridge, as we know or call them, at all. Just the string fastened between two fixed points and at least one of those points movable. In my double changer, both points were movable. I didn't care much for that either. It didn't sound like a traditional steel sound that most of us are used to.
I apoligize for this being so long, but this is not an easy thing to discuss in a short way,,,at least for me.
I'll be glad to take it to whatever extent you care to and to share with you what little I know about this topic.
I have always contended that the weakest link in "our chain" is our strings, all other factors being at least close to what they should be.
Bottom line is this,,,,if you want a set of guaged rollers and want them to really be true, then you'll need to have them made, either by yourself or a machinest. A good machinest may be expensive, but he's hard to beat if you really want the best product.
I can only say what a true pleasure it is to play on a guitar that the strings are level at the nut and you don't have to unduly press down hard on the bar to make contact with all the strings which ultimately cancels out all of the fine tuning you may have done with the open strings.
While on that subject,,,I have always contended that a steel guitar player must not only contend with his "open tuning", but also should give proper attention to "bar tuning". That opens up another BIG can of worms that I won't go into here.
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 17 Mar 2003 2:15 am

Bobby Great post. Thank you. Zery informative... and not a bit squirly

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 17 Mar 2003 8:37 am

As usual, Bobby is full of useful knowledge about the technical and mechanical aspects of steel guitars. I agree with him that a pro machinist would not be likely to touch the problem for less than $10 per roller. I for one would be willing to pay that much.

In the meantime, we can probably greatly improve our problems with off-the-shelf guaged rollers that are already out there. Most rollers seem to be 1/8" width, and 5/16" diameter. But axles are of different sizes. My '80s Emmons P/P has a 1/16" axles, and my Fessy has a 3/32" axle. The grooves come in several different sizes, and that is the point. If we could just get a list of the roller dimensions from several psg manufacturers, we could just use these off-the-shelf rollers to put together a set better than what comes on some guitars (all the rollers with the same groove width).

Please take a minute and measure your guitar's rollers and post it here (steel tape measures usually have marks down to 1/32", which is adequate for this purpose). Many thanks.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 17 March 2003 at 08:44 AM.][This message was edited by David Doggett on 17 March 2003 at 02:11 PM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 17 Mar 2003 9:58 am

Bobby,

A wonderfully worded and articulated post. Thank you dear friend for your giving us your expert thoughts on this issue. I agree with every single word you said.

The info about the angle that the strings leave the nut after passing over the roller was precisely what I was referring to ealier along with the U versus the V grooves.

These aspects may be thought insignificant by some, but they ARE very important in a given sound of any PSG or any guitar for that matter.

The reason is simple. It is the nut (and the changer) that touches the string last (excluding the bar and fingers). So it only stands to reason that a lot of research is needed in this area. Sadly, I believe this may not have been the case. Although I do not know it for sure.

In any event, thanks friend for taking the time to share this with us. Most informative post.

May Jesus richly bless you Bobby and all the rest of you,

carl

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 17 Mar 2003 1:47 pm

I'll try this again.
I just typed another long discussion around this subject and somehow it would not post. I'll probably forget most of what I said. Man, it was some really good stuff!

!!!!

David, I suspect you meant to say 1/16'th and 3/32'nd's, repspectively.

Let's say it's 2 or 3am in the morning. You're sitting at your wife's dining table, in your shop, at your desk, drawing table, etc. and you've got something between a #2 lead pencil, a ruler, a legal pad or other paper or maybe the most up to date computer drawing program or anything in between and an idea. You're tired, sleeply, hungry, constipated, aggrevated and desperately seeking "that miracle answer". I'll tell ya, one of the last concerns you have is what someone else has or is desiginning and whether or not your ideas will "meld" with another guitar. This may be taking it a little far, but I promise you, it don't miss the mark very far. Hence, we have the wide variences in the ways that a pedal steel is designed and produced. Personally speaking, I' really glad for and thankful to all those "crazy" guys that give so much of themselves and their lives to give us the most remarkable musical instrument in the world. And lest we forget, all the sacrifices and emotional pitfalls that their wives and families go through. Most of us have had more than our share of ups and downs because of our passion to build the "better wheel". Believe me, it makes no difference whether a particular guitar is good or bad, it and all the hundreds of parts, didn't just fall off of a steel guitar tree. Well, enough of that!

The roller nuts that I used on the "B" guitars and as well the Remington PSG's were .500" OD by .185" W. I used either a 3/32'nd or 1/8" axle. Somehow there was two sets of prints for the nut bar. One was milled for 3/32 and the other for 1/8. I personally liked the 3/32 better. I feel that it allowed the roller to roll with less resistence. The only other guitar that comes to mind that might innerchange with those rollers was the Mullin, and at that, it wasn't a really good fit without some additional work done to them.
Boys and girls, whether or not you have a perfect set of roller nuts, or for that matter, a near perfect overall guitar, is not the main issue,,,,,the main issue is the person sitting behind the machine and his/her personal commitment to learn what's there for you and to be able to execute to the point that you say something worthwhile when you play. At most levels and in most cases,,,,it's "not the car,,,,it's the driver"......!
Later,
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 17 Mar 2003 2:18 pm

Right, Bobby, the Emmons axle is 1/16" and the Fessy axle is 3/32". I've now edited the above post to correct this.

I never noticed this problem on E9 (probably why some manufacturers haven't dealt with the problem), but on C6 and universals it is a problem because of that big ole 0.068 bottom string. If that thing doesn't have a bigger groove in the roller it sits up there a mile high.

Keep those measurements coming, guys, this is the quickest fix for this problem.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Mar 2003 3:47 am

Any suggestions for a Sho-Bud pro II C6's rollers? For somewhere down the line.

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 18 Mar 2003 5:26 am

David,
As well as I remember, most of the Sho-Bud rollers were a fair amount thinner (width) than most guitars. In this case you more or less have to reduce the outside diameter (OD) accordingly and still maintain enough of a groove (prefer V) to hold the string. It don't have to be much of a groove in this case. Just do the reducing carefully and in steps if you don't have the proper tooling and measuring devices.
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Mar 2003 6:16 am

Thanks Bobby. When I get around to this, I will have a pro machinist do the work.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 18 Mar 2003 9:16 am

most of the Sho-Bud rollers were a fair amount thinner (width) than most guitars

Right. My low E string .054 is wider than the entire Sho-Bud roller.

Henning Kock · Post by **Henning Kock** » 19 Mar 2003 3:24 am

18. March, 2003,
Hello Doug Earnest,
Interesting that you are the part time assistant chief hole driller and student guitar assembler at Zum Steel, you will soon be drilling and assembling 6 pcs of Stage Ones for me under Bruces watchful eye.
Say hello to Bruce from me.
Kind regards
Henning
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
Henning Kock
(pedal steel guitar, piano, keyboards, vibraphone)
Henning K. Music
111 Aarhusvej
DK-8300 Odder
Denmark,
Europe
phone +45 8654 2959
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e-mail address: henningkmusic@hotmail.com
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webpages:
pedal steel guitar: www.geocities.com/Nashville/1520 www.steelguitardanmark.subnet.dk (information)
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and for musical instrument products wholesale (to dealers): www.henningkmusic.subnet.dk
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