Push/Pull

Christopher Lippincott · Post by **Christopher Lippincott** » 5 Apr 2013 9:20 am

I am curious to know more about Push/Pull guitars.

-Why did Emmon's stop making them?
-Why do they have "that sound"
-Why are they heavier?
-How do modern PP's compare (Promat)

Pardon my ignorance, though I have never seen or played a Push/Pull, and hear all the world of them on here.

Thanks.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 5 Apr 2013 12:39 pm

they stopped making them as soon as every player who deserved one had one.
they are heavy because they are made out of real wood and metal and steel players back then weren't a bunch of weakling whiners like they are now.
they had that sound cause it was a good sound everyone liked.
promats are said to be very similar but i've never been to that part of the world.

seriously chris, you should just start doing a forum search on push/pull and emmons and read the many discussions we've had over the years. goodluck!

Paul Norman · Post by **Paul Norman** » 5 Apr 2013 7:12 pm

I have a LeGrande II All pull and it has just as much of "That sound" as a Push-pull. So I sold my Push-Pull.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 6 Apr 2013 7:34 am

The "sound" you get from a p/p is due to the design of the changer. When you make a pedal or lever change on a p/p, the changer finger bottoms out solid on the adjustment screw. You can tune your changes on a p/p with out any pedal or lever rods attached, it's all done in the changer.
There is, however, a drawback to the p/p changer.
There has to be some slack in the raise rod if you have a lower on the same string.
Also, on a p/p guitar, it is harder to make changes in your copedent. And finally, there is a possibly that these guitars were more expensive to build than an all pull guitar.
Just a few of the reasons, plus and minus, for owning and playing an Emmons p/p.
The ProMat is just a clone of the Emmons done in metric.

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 6 Apr 2013 7:41 am

weight -
All that push pull hardware weighs a lot because it's steel not aluminium. It has to be quite heavey duty to both push and pull. There's a steel bar pedal stop running the full length of the front apron too.

Zoran Kosir · Post by **Zoran Kosir** » 11 Apr 2013 1:16 pm

In P/P system, changer is touching cabinet with a basic stretcher on each side of cabinet. That's very important about transfer oscilations to an instrument and also to quality of sustain.
Why are P/P heavy? This guitars are heavy becouse of specific heavy material using with P/P mechanical process.
PROMAT guitars are contemporary managed questions about cabinet, changer and pedals with change on a good quality materials which giving us a better sustain and tone with a long lasting strings.
Specially good news is a modified changer with an antimagnetic steel using a good resistance of strength ...
PROMAT guitars are for those who loves a nice tone and superior sustain. Yes they are a little bit heavy, but ... We all know what we need.

http://www.promat-steel-guitars.com/

john widgren · Post by **john widgren** » 11 Apr 2013 3:04 pm

I like greeen.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Apr 2013 4:15 pm

I think that some of the "special sound" comes from the pedal stop bar, as Jim mentioned, but it also comes from the changers small top radius, and the small links that decouple the changer from the pulling train. As to why they stopped making them? Well, my guess is that other brands started sounding really, really good, and players simply didn't want them as much as they used to - they wanted the more modern (all-pull) designs.
For many people, buying decisions are based on the old "latest, greatest" mentality. They just want something better than their neighbor or buddy has, so they continually buy the newest of everything, and view it as an improvement...whether or not it actually is.

I played straight guitar before I ever played steel, and I can remember when you almost couldn't give away a Fender Esquire or Princeton amp.

Tastes change, and we can't always explain why.

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 11 Apr 2013 5:40 pm

I'm in your camp Donny for just about everything...Are we related?

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 12 Apr 2013 8:36 am

i think the main direction changed solidly in the beginning of the eighties with the 'big four' setting the future path with great sounding, functioning, lighter steels with the expanded copedant possibilities due to the 'split tuning' capability.

these were:

zumsteel
emmons legrande
jch
franklin

everone else followed suit!

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 13 Apr 2013 8:10 am

It's an over priced used antiquated outmoded musical instrument purchased solely as a vulgar display of arrogance and wealth.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 13 Apr 2013 8:21 am

And your mother wears combat boots!

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 13 Apr 2013 8:23 am

I wish some Millionaire would buy the company and start manufacturing them at an affordable price.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 13 Apr 2013 9:04 am

Why do you think a millionaire would build them any cheaper?
How do you think he got to be a millionaire?

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 13 Apr 2013 10:40 am

a million bucks is pocket change now.

or, as they say, 'a million is the new one thousand'!!

Robert Daniels · Post by **Robert Daniels** » 13 Apr 2013 7:57 pm

As they used to say about recording studios...

How do you make a small fortune in the music business?

Start with a large fortune.

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 15 Apr 2013 4:58 am

I think some folks are unhappy with the p/p guitars because they never find the sweet spot.The guitar can not make up for poor ears, no heart and hard hands and the ability to connect them together.
I have always believed some pickers have the God given ability to find all these things on just about any guitar. Sure a great amps helps and maybe a little effects, but the bottom line to me is the player.
If you play within your self and stick to the melody you can make any guitar sound pretty good.
This is my eighty year old opinion and just might be so much BS.

Old Bud

Aaron Goldstein · Post by **Aaron Goldstein** » 15 Apr 2013 8:16 am

Willis Vanderberg wrote:I think some folks are unhappy with the p/p guitars because they never find the sweet spot.The guitar can not make up for poor ears, no heart and hard hands and the ability to connect them together.
I have always believed some pickers have the God given ability to find all these things on just about any guitar. Sure a great amps helps and maybe a little effects, but the bottom line to me is the player.
If you play within your self and stick to the melody you can make any guitar sound pretty good.
This is my eighty year old opinion and just might be so much BS.

Old Bud

Hear, hear! The tone is in your hands, everything else is details.

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 15 Apr 2013 11:16 am

My 2 cents on why and how:
They are heavier because they were made with steel mostly and the cabinets were made with much better or let me say heavier wood than the guitars today and as Chris stated above about the whiners of today. They put a lot of relevance on guitar weight. I'm 69 years old and have never even thought about the weight of a guitar. I don't care if its heavy, If I like it, I'm gonna play it.

2nd is the cost of manufacturing. I think P/P's would be quite a bit more expensive to build than an all pull guitar.

3rd is the fact that they are harder to work on and maintain and make changes too than the modern all pulls. I myself don't think that but they are more time consuming when it comes to changing things.

I think those 3 factors plus the fact that the new all pulls sound and play superb now days and most wouldn't spend the extra bucks and put up with the extra weight of a P/P to play one so that altogether made the Emmons P/P fade away as far as manufacturing goes. They are still those that won't paly anything else but just courious as to how many would buy a new P/P if they were still being made. I probably would.

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » 15 Apr 2013 12:15 pm

Aaron Goldstein wrote:
Willis Vanderberg wrote:I think some folks are unhappy with the p/p guitars because they never find the sweet spot.The guitar can not make up for poor ears, no heart and hard hands and the ability to connect them together.
I have always believed some pickers have the God given ability to find all these things on just about any guitar. Sure a great amps helps and maybe a little effects, but the bottom line to me is the player.
If you play within your self and stick to the melody you can make any guitar sound pretty good.
This is my eighty year old opinion and just might be so much BS.

Old Bud
Hear, hear! The tone is in your hands, everything else is details.

Exactly why some seasoned players prefer a push pull.....very responsive pick attack and other nuance. That also explains why two different player may sound totally different on the same rig.

Ever have a really good player sit down at 'your' guitar and squeeze out some fabulous tone that you never found?

Nick Reed · Post by **Nick Reed** » 15 Apr 2013 1:47 pm

I'm with Henry on this one . . . the weight issue of a P/P just doesn't matter if you like the sound. I personally prefer the feel of a P/P and thats because it's what I've gotten used to over the years. I do sometimes play my LeGrande III, yes it's smooth and plays like butter but I always seem to wanna come back to those old P/P's. It's like saying welcome back home baby!

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 16 Apr 2013 10:27 pm

I know why the Emmons p/p sounds better than other guitars....but Ive been sworn to secrecy.

In an unrelated matter, Willis has a point about finding the sweet spot.

George Edwards calls it that "unforgiving tone"

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 18 Apr 2013 7:00 am

Erv Niehaus wrote:Why do you think a millionaire would build them any cheaper?
How do you think he got to be a millionaire?

I was thinking more like... a Lottery winner.
Keep the faith, Erv!
$2500 dollar brand new Push-Pulls all around.
You'd have your basic model, custom options, etc...
'Doesn't seem too far fetch to me.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 18 Apr 2013 7:11 am

Pete,
Keep steelin'!

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 18 Apr 2013 8:51 am

you would think that the emmons co. might consider selling the rights, plans, leftover parts and such of the 'original' to a $erious builder for a nice chunk-o-change. i don't think they can afford the time or manpower to deal with that option anymore.

now this is just a joke, but if they sold it to a french company they could name them l'emmons.

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