Tuning! Are you realy in tune!

rhcarden · Post by **rhcarden** » 15 Mar 2003 6:02 pm

"Just because it sounds in tune to you does not mean that you are in tune"!

I made this statement earlier and I still stand by it.

I know that if I tune by ear, (JT or what ever you want to call it), that my 3rds will be flat. I also know that if that flat 3rd becomes the root and I tune a 3rd to that flat root, it's realy flat.

E,B,G#. A flat G# sounds in tune.
E,C#,A. A flat C# sounds in tune.
C#,F,G# Since the C# and G# are flat already, what must you do with the F? Make it realy flat? Now! what do you do with the F#? Do you tune it with the C# or the B. Sure I can let my ear place the bar and all these chords will be in tune, except for the chords that use the F#. (Or did I tune it to Gb). What about the C# chord? When I play open strings, it's flat, and with the band, it's realy flat! If I tuned to 442.5, it might help, but then the A and E chords are sharp!

If I tune JT, there are strings that cannot be used, if I want to sound in tune.

If I tune ET, I can use any string, at any position, even open. And since the rest of the band is tuned ET, It's possible that I just may be in tune with them!

If you,ve tuned by ear for number of years as I did, It's hard to tune ET. I started playing in the 50's and started tuning ET in the 70's. I want change back. I tune my non- pedal guitar ET also.

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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 15 Mar 2003 6:21 pm

RH,

You have a lot of courage, and I commend you for your stance. Many are flat not going to agree with you. I do, however.

EVEN though I tune JI wherever possible, I KNOW in my heart it is; and has been incorrect since I began playing. Your examples of the F note and the F#'s prove to me beyond any shadow of a doubt that JI is just simply wrong.

A non pedal E13th tuning slaps a JI tuner/player in the face everytime he tries to tune it. In a word, It cannot be tuned pure JI across any two strings.

ALL the rationlizations about it are also incorrect. All the books ever written simply hold to the ole "the earth is flat theory" IMO. There are just too many places all over E9 and C6 that go against JI ever being correct.

Having said that, I am going to tune JI wherever possible because it simply sounds better to my ears, even though I know it is wrong.

To me it is NO different that an overweight person eating sweets. Or a person with a heart problem (or enphasema) continuing to smoke. Etc, Etc. Ohhhhhh soo good, but it is still wrong.

Oh well.

carl

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 15 Mar 2003 8:28 pm

To me it is NO different that an overweight person eating sweets. Or a person with a heart problem (or enphasema) continuing to smoke.

Carl;
I beg to differ. Tuning a steel guitar to JI does not have the potential to KILL !!
The other activities you describe do.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 16 Mar 2003 12:46 am

This discussion keeps on repeating. I can imagine, a tuned instrument is , besides good playing a part of your music.
How about this:
Tune by ear, if your instrument is in tune to your own standards,I mean your own developed ears, trust on that. Don't let a math-designed instrument tell you if you are right or wrong, just let it be a help by giving a clue.Trust your ears, if you are not able to do that, you are not able to play at all! my 2 €cts
Johan

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Click on the pic!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 Mar 2003 2:15 am

Get your E dead on with the guitar and bass,
then tweak all other notes till it sounds good.
If your with an acoustic piano go with the C, then make it SOUND GOOD to your ears.
Tuners are fast and very helpful, but agonizing about which number is right is not musical... it's technical, and tempering of pianos has been argued about for centuries.

If it sounds right to you.. It's right.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 March 2003 at 02:16 AM.]

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 16 Mar 2003 4:44 am

Actually I start with the A, not the E

Steve Alonzo Walker · Post by **Steve Alonzo Walker** » 16 Mar 2003 4:59 am

I'm sorry, but i've tried straight up and flattening my g#'s and to me it sounds terrible!!! The following is how I tune for what it's worth:

F# 440
D#
G# 437--------------A 440
E 441 Peddles Down----------F# 436.5
B 442.5------------C# 436---C# 436
G# 437--------------A 440
F# 438.5
E 441 Peddles Down
D 440
B 442.5------------C# 436
This works for me anyway.

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 16 Mar 2003 10:35 am

Get your E dead on with the guitar and bass

Good luck with that! I still think this is the best method. Tune your E's straight up with pedals A & B down. Tune your 'pedals down' A's straight up, then tune all your pulls however sounds best to you.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 16 Mar 2003 10:50 am

I've found that, like steel players, many guitar players other five strings when playing a chord are not in tune with their "E".

My final check on whether we are tuned close enough to play together is for each of us to play a chord.

If we're both out of tune together it's still better than one being "in" tune and the other "out"!

Of course, the ideal is for everyone to be in-tune! www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 16 March 2003 at 10:52 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 Mar 2003 11:32 am

AS usual Gene is on the money.
I was thinking in a controled recording situation where if the others aren't in good tune... you don't go on. Not out in a bar, or shall we say less precice atmosphere.

In a good band it really becomes a group tempering of the tunings.

As far as playing a chord I find different instruments want different chords. Mandolins love G, but my Dobro wants E, Supro C and A.
So guys for the C6 and E9 what are your prefered chords?

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 March 2003 at 11:35 AM.]

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 16 Mar 2003 11:39 am

I still tune my S-11 Rusler, to Jeff Newman's "older" tuning chart. It's always in tune with the bass and guitars, in the band. When I do studio work, I never have a problem staying in tune with the existing tracks. The only glitch is, when I play in the B6 mode. The F# seventh string tends to sound a tad flat. So,I tune that string up just a bit, by ear, just to compensate. I've tried straight up tuning, but, found the sound irritating to my ears. So, I'll stay with what works for me.

Smokey Fennell · Post by **Smokey Fennell** » 17 Mar 2003 3:15 pm

As this topic repeats, I always see references to the guitar being tuned ET. Everything at 440. But isn't this different when the guitar has to adjust the length of each string to stay in tune as you move up the neck? Aren't the tuning changes on the steel doing much the same thing? A guitar without an adjustable bridge would sound pretty sour. The steel does not have this feature so we adjust the pitch. At least this is how I justified the tuning.

rhcarden · Post by **rhcarden** » 17 Mar 2003 7:48 pm

Steve, you have 3 F#s. string 1 is 440 string 4 436.5 and string 7 is 438.5. Which string do use (1 or 4) to play an octive? This is an example of the problem I have with JT. It works for you, not me! My ear tells me that two of those strings are out of tune. And for the people who say "tune by ear", my tuner will me which two are out!

I don't use a C pedal and that makes tuning the 4 string F# even more of a problem. Should I tune it with the 5th string Bb,B,C,C#, or D? ET works for me!

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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7
[This message was edited by rhcarden on 18 March 2003 at 08:39 PM.]