Push-Pull Tone---Myth or Fact ?

[Tony Prior]

Fact:

the one "All Pull" guitar I have is the best one I have...and also sounds the best.

[Tony Glassman]

Whether or not the Emmons pedal steel is, in fact, ithe best sounding guitar is an unanswerable question.

However, the general consensus is that most people feel that if there is one single guitar tone that is the gold standard by which all others are compared, it is the Emmons push-pull sound

So........... While it's neither myth or fact, PP tone superiority is a commonly held opinion.

[Donny Hinson]

Is it fact or myth?
Where there is smoke there is fire,
The fact that it has been tone to live by for many years and it keeps coming up is fact enough for me. Most of the great solos were recorded with a PP, Buddy, Hal, Weldon, Sonny and many others.

Well, Lloyd Green might disagree. (Also, Buddy Charleton, Curly Chalker, and Pete Drake...if they were still around.)

[Jerome Hawkes]

I wish the mods would go ahead and "sticky" this debate right up next to "How to Tune A Push/Pull" so we wouldnt have to go through this every 6 months. That way all the new players that run out and get a PP because it will give them The Tone of the Gods will know how to tune it too.

[Keith Currie]

Jerome you may have something there.

[Mark van Allen]

I truly love these threads! For any of you newbies checking in here, you might want to search the many thousands of similar explorations dating back to the early days of the forum in 1143 when the first formica mines opened in Latvia.

As far as "mythical or factual tone", I think you can separate this into several categories.

• Somebody told somebody that PPs have the best tone, and so it must be.
  You've heard a number of guitars played by others, and the guys on the PPs always sounded better somehow.
  You have owned more than one guitar, and your PP (or the one that got away) was really the best.

"Somebody told..." There are similar folk or FOAF tales in every discipline or pursuit. Every 50's telecaster doesn't necessarily play and sound better than every modern one... but it's easier to believe coming from someone you admire. I've always hear how great PP's are, and the 3 I've owned were all great, though a bit different in tone, projection, and sustain from one to the next. (I once bought a different highly regarded brand that gets many rave reviews, and it just died above the 12th fret. Unplayable to me. But might have been just that particular guitar.)

"You've heard..." This one's more personally subjective. I have witnessed a number of situations where this certainly seemed true to me, although I wonder how much the third category affects that. I have to say here that, personally, I sometimes liked both Emmons' and Hughey's tone better on other guitars than the PPs they played for so long. Of course, that's just my taste. Buddy has stated that one of his favorite recorded tones was the EMCI on his Christmas album. Listening to Buddy on PP, Lloyd on LDG, and John on his Zum both live and on record, I wouldn't be able (or want) to choose a favorite sound for my listening pleasure. All gorgeous.

"Your own PP..." Obviously this should carry a lot more weight for argument's sake. As you hear from many here, they've owned or own many different guitars and one particular PP is their favorite for tone, feel, or both.

Still highly subjective. The Emmons originals have (most of them) a great tonal spectrum with a bloom or punch in the midrange, and a lean but beefy low end that makes for a great classic "sound", especially when played by a gifted player. When comparing a "good" PP with an average all pull, the tone is noticeably different even to a beginner. Whether that sound is "better" becomes the subjective part. My first steel was a ShoBud maverick, and I knew it sounded kind of crappy even at my best efforts. My second steel was a Marlen pull-release, and while it was a mechanical nightmare, the tone was very nice, and inspired me to play better. I traded that one for an S10 PP, and the difference in tone, but even more in feel, really inspired and impressed me.

And that leads to another point we've seen mentioned in these threads, that elusive and nearly indescribable "feel" thing. For some players it's comfort and ease of action they notice- ever watch guys pushing the pedals and levers to test the "feel" at a steel show? To someone used to the smoother, faster pedal action of some all pulls, the (generally) stiffer feel of the PP can be off-putting- but Herb and many other players prefer the reactive feedback the PP linkage and balance imparts to playing feel. Personally, I'll agree that a good PP has a way of "pushing back" at you, for lack of a better description, you can feel the note attack and decay in a subtle physical way, kind of like feeling the bloom of the note... hard to describe, but for me it's a noticeable feature of (again, a "good") PP guitar, that most importantly, makes it more tactile and rewarding to play on. I happen to think that tactile feel brings one into closer "bonding" with the notes you're playing. This is again a somewhat subtle thing, and perhaps unnoticeable to a beginner or listener, but I think it can be huge to an accomplished player. If a guitar has a distinct and solid "sound" of it's own, and a tactile "feel" which draws you further into the playing experience, why wouldn't it be a special guitar?

The thing is, we all have such different subjective experience of tone and what's important to us in the playing feel and ergonomics of an axe, not to mention the vagaries of fine tuning or ease of changing pulls, etc. Definitely not a one size fits all paradigm. I'm looking forward to the variations on this theme in 2022.

[Joey Ace]

Making it a "Sticky" would mean we'd have to look at this silly topic all the time. I'd rather see it drift away for a while.

I've kept out of this discussion, but would like to say I now own three PSGs.

2006 GFI Keyless
2009 Carter
1970 Emmons PP


They all get regular use, and there is no "best".
Each has it's own personality, and I'm glad they do.

[Lane Gray]

I think it's the action less than the tone.
They feel more rewarding to play, so we think we sound better. Thanks to mental feedback, we play better. The cats in the audience couldn't tell, though, which was which.
The way they push back feels kinda organic and musical. The Zum is a much better machine, but it doesn't have the soul of the PP

[Robert Harper]

Like someone said a lineup of steels on a stage and the Emmons PP will stand out. I do agree there is no Holy Grail. The difference is noticable even in my incomptent hands. I have never heard a ProMat(SP) in a lineup anyonthat has care to comment?

[Glenn Suchan]

In my years of playing I've owned a Gibson Electraharp (Now we're talkin' 'bout a real 'tone monster' ), a Sierra and three Emmons P/P's (an S10, an S12 and my current and final guitar, a D10). I've also played gigs with a Mullen and a BMI guitar. As others have said, all of these modern guitars have good tone and I had no issues playing gigs with any of them. The reason I went back to exclusively playing/owning an Emmons p/p is two fold: The tone I get from the Emmons is what I like. To me, it is the best. But more importantly, I love the feel of the instrument while playing it. There is a level of vibrational feedback that I can feel in my hands from the Emmons P/P. As Bob Hoffnar said, it's a visceral thing. It's almost like the guitar is a living creature. Whatever your personal touch may be, the Emmons p/p responds in kind. That's something I haven't felt with any other guitar.

As for the tone - Is the Emmons P/P the best, myth or fact? Well, maybe it's impossible to prove any brand/design produces the best tone. But, as Herb Steiner has said, if it isn't the best why do many all-pull players and builders keep making favorable comparisons of their guitars to the legendary push/pull tone? The only guitars about which I haven't read or heard the remark, "sounds similar to the Emmons push pull tone" are the other legendary guitars: Sho~Bud, the early ZB and Franklin.

Maybe all of this bruhaha about guitar tone is a subliminal desire to go back to the halcyon days of the early development of the modern pedal steel guitar.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

[Ken Byng]

........... There is a level of vibrational feedback that I can feel in my hands from the Emmons P/P..........

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Glenn
I get that - you have captured the descriptive quality of the push pull in a few simple words.

[Carson Leighton]

I played a 1972 Sho-Bud that was without a doubt, every bit as good as any Emmons. This guitar was a D-10 professional.. It's a different sound than an Emmons P/P or any other guitar to my ears,, and that's a fact.. Never underestimate a Sho-Bud...Carson

[Tom Lulias]

Well said glen I agree

[Tab Tabscott]

They are so sweeeeeeet. I love the "mush" of the mechanism. I got another PP about a year ago after a 20 year hiatus. This thing will suit me just fine till I die.

[Billy Knowles]

Donny,
Buddy Charleton played an Emmons and he played a early "bolt on" Emmons until he passed away, Lloyd and Pete did some really good work also.

[Tracy Sheehan]

Reminds me of an old story about a farmer who had a friend visting him from the city. He and his friend were walking through the field and came across a large animal track. The farmer said that is big enough to be a bear track but i have never heard of a bear being in this part of the country.
His friend went back to town and told some one they saw a bear track. This guy tells they saw a bear. Before long it was going around that a bear had killed the farmer. So go figure.

[Wally Moyers]

[quote="

Are they the best guitar, I do not think so, most other guitars work better in the big picture. Do they have the most real, open, in your face sound that all other guitar makers are looking for - YES.

Larry Behm[/quote]

Amen!

[John Scanlon]

One question I continually ask myself here: why do I get involved in these silly, inconsequential, name-calling pissing matches? I think it's a character flaw I have that I'm going to have to work on. Starting now.

Too late.

[John Scanlon]

I think it's the action less than the tone.

I know absolutely nothing about PPs aside from what I read here, but this makes the most sense to me (the guy who knows nothing about them).

I have always been curious, and almost started a thread once or twice, as to *why* in the world the mechanics of the changer mechanism would affect tone (I mean, aside from the mass of the mechanism, if it's even any different). I've read all the threads I can stand on this, out of sheer curiosity, and I've never seen anyone give it a shot. I can only assume it's the tone of the notes when being affected by pedals/levers - not just the whole tone of the guitar in general (in which case, other things like the pickup, etc. would have a definite effect). So if that assumption is correct, why would a string being lowered sound tonally different when it was pushed versus when it was pulled?? I'm sure I'm missing something here, but can anyone actually explain the reasoning that the tone would be affected?

If it's personal preference, that I get. If it's the action and feel of the levers/pedals/stops, that I get. If there are other factors affecting tone that just happen to be on a PP, that I get. But if it's saying, as I assume (perhaps incorrectly), that lowering a string with a push sounds different from lowering it with a pull, that I don't get at all.

[Lane Gray]

Well, some say that the fact that the fingers make indirect body contact at neutral, fully raised and fully lowered (via cap/set screws) makes the difference, since the all-pull has a more tenuous and indirect link with the cabinet.
I tend to doubt that: the 5th string still sounds like a push-pull even with 5 A pedal half down, with no cabinet contact.

[Bob Hoffnar]

John,
Your questions are big and the answers are complicated. But let's start with your assumptions are not applicable. If the tone of the guitar comes from the action anybody could change the pedal feel of there steels with a couple springs. Steel guitars get there tone or lack of tone from the comprehensive whole and not just one or two contact points with the string. On a good steel you can feel the front leg vibrate when you hit a note.

Do a search of the old forum. Years ago builders would talk extensively about the questions you have. Or better yet turn off your computer and go find a player with an Emmons PP and check it out. The information you get first hand should clarify things in a way the forum never will.

[Paul Sutherland]

John: With a push-pull changer the lower changer finger comes to rest solidly against the end plate, or rather a lower adjustment screw which is threaded into the end plate. And the raise finger comes to rest solidly against the wood cabinet. It's been said that causes less of the energy of the vibrating string to get lost, so the guitar sustains more. Perhaps it has other affects on the tone as well, such as a more crisp attack.

The all pull changer is sort of free floating. Not really, of course, but it doesn't have as solid a pedal stop on either the raises or the lowers.

I'm no engineer, but that's what I understand is the biggest reason for the difference in tone.

[Ken Metcalf]

When I first had a chance to play a PP I played it and within 30 seconds I said That's It ... That's what I want.
Living in the steel guitar center of the universe as I do I am exposed to people like Bobby Bowman and get to see Herb, Jim Loessberg, Hofffnar, Ricky Davis on a regular basis.
I see many Many people playing all pulls with exceptional tone and talent.
I have to say the absolute top of the list and best of all would have to be the free hot dogs at Ginny's little longhorn..Chickenshit bingo

[Glenn Suchan]

Well, some say that the fact that the fingers make indirect body contact at neutral, fully raised and fully lowered (via cap/set screws) makes the difference....
I tend to doubt that: the 5th string still sounds like a push-pull even with 5 A pedal half down, with no cabinet contact.

Lane, you are correct. The raise fingers do make indirect contact with the cabinet during the transaction from the detent position (no pedals) to the full raise (when the pedal or knee lever is fully engaged). That indirect contact comes through the fact that the raise finger nests, in full contact, in the lower finger, which rests against the deck board. However, my opinion differs from yours in that I believe the Emmons p/p tone remains during the transition of 'no pedals' to 'pedal raises'. I believe that is true, based on a sufficient amount of string vibration transfer from the raise finger to the lower finger. Regarding string pitch lowers, the lower finger rests against the deck board only in the detent position (no pedals). It doesn't make direct contact, during pedal-engagement, until it has fully transitioned and stops against the tuning screw in the endplate. I submit that, during the transition of the lower finger (detent to fully engaged), the string vibration can only travel to the cabinet through the changer axel and axel pillow blocks, into the guitar deck. That is exactly how vibrations get to the cabinet from the changer in an all-pull guitar.

I further submit: Those all-pull players claiming their guitar sounds "alot like an Emmons P/P" must have very good ears. Those most excellent ears are allowing them to hear that precise moment when, on a push/pull, the lower finger depends on the changer axel to transmit string vibration to the cabinet, thus sounding alot like their all-pull guitar.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

[Bob Hoffnar]

When you pick a string on a pedalsteel the entire guitar resonates. Having the lower engaged on one string does not seem to mess up the overall tone of a PP. The whole guitar, legs, pedalrack and all contribute to the sound. I have spent time with builders who say that even the tuning keys can make a difference because the old style ones rest directly on the keyhead while the new ones have an extra gear that works better but does not transfer vibrations the same.