Push-Pull Tone---Myth or Fact ?

[Jim Pitman]

I really like the sound of a push pull. However, I'm not able to put up with the weight or the fact that raises dominate over lowers. I play a U12 and had an Emmons PP set up that way. I traded it.

[Tony Prior]

of course we like the PP tone..but there are other considerations...


Someone above says manufacturers went to all PULL for "cheap reasons"...that couldn't be farther from reality..

one word..or maybe two

SHO-BUD never cheap and never push pull


IF you loved Loyd's tone or Pete's tone..you did not play a Push Pull, those Sho-Buds rocked and are on countless recordings... that we all like....and that's why I went Sho Bud at the beginning...

So what are we talking about here ?

It was always an understanding that I had that PPL's were more difficult for the average player to set up and near impossible to add to the configuration...such as extra Knee's and extra Peds...unlike all pulls..it's an easy life for the average player...


I like Telecasters..others like Les Pauls and Strats...

I think we get hunkered down too many times on strings and brands of guitars , one vs the other etc..which amp should I use, which speaker...etc....

then we play off pitch !

It's a good life !

[Herb Steiner]

Richard -

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!

Now we wait for the multitudes of misguided and brainwashed to skewer you unmercifully!

Richard

Richard
Thanks for your insightful pronouncement about a great number of players here. Your knowledge of psychology is impressive to many, I'm sure.

One question I continually ask myself here: why do I get involved in these silly, inconsequential, name-calling pissing matches? I think it's a character flaw I have that I'm going to have to work on. Starting now.

[Henry Matthews]

Herb, I always love your post and you really have a way with words that can convey the answer to any debate going on. Do you sound good on your P/P, h*** yes. Your tone is surpassed by very few. Don't know whether it is you or your guitar but can assume it is both. Does Jim L. and Rick P. sound good and a P/P, same answer.
I too have played almost every guitar out there and have come back to the P/P and recently own two. At my age of 68, I think I'll just stick with them because it would be better than to keep trying other guitars, cheaper too, I always lose money on guitars, LOL. Do other guitars sound good, yes they do and I have recorded with both all pull and P/P's and really can't tell a lot of difference. The difference comes from live playing. The P/P sounds and react's to my touch much better than other guitars during live play which in turn, makes me play better. However, the Zum Hybrid I had was a true match for the P/P. Wish I would have kept it but that's another story.

Do all P/P's sound good. Nope, I had a black D-10 about 10 years ago that no matter what amp, pickup or strings I tried, it didn't have it. Tried everything there was for tone enhancement and it was just dead.

P/P's aren't for everybody as Herb has stated in an earlier post. If you don't have some mechanical ability and know how of how they work, you could get into a heap of trouble trying to change things on them. Also, the different feel which some folks don't like. I myself think they are easier to work on than most all pull guitars but just a little more time consuming. Are P/P's better, maybe and maybe not. Just according to who's driving, that's why I like Chevys.

[Doug Rolfe]

Every time this topic comes up, I have to chuckle. We are all big boys here or at least I would like to think so. These are the posters opinions and nothing more. It has never been proven to be a fact. For those who believe it's a fact, to them it's a fact. To those who believe it's a myth, it's a myth. In fact the only proof that I am aware of where someone challenged this forum to know which steel was played on what song was the great player, Randy Beavers. I have posted regarding this test twice before and no one here has answered my post other than some smart alec remark or a flame tossed into the mix. Here's the test that Randy challenged this forum with. He recorded an album on which he played three songs with the P/P and also recorded nine songs with a Zum. With everything set the same except the change of steels, he challenged us to tell him which three songs were done with the P/P. Please understand that no one, I repeat no one got all three. Why? These are the supposed experts who say that they can clearly tell a P/P from any other steel. Why does no one answer that question? I doubt seriously if it will be answered here again this time. IMHO this is a myth which Randy proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[Bob Hoffnar]

Herb,
I'm with you. I have been trying not to post when the subject the equivalent of a kid looking for attention by eating boogers. It's hard though when the contention is so obviously ridiculous.

I used to tour with the bolt on D10 I got from you. I used to warn steel players that wanted to try it out that it would mess there heads up. The reaction that other road players after they sat down and played it was either "Oh shit, so its all true !" or "How much money do I need to buy one ?"( I had that same reaction when I first got hit by the Bigsby/ Clinesmith bomb and bought one on the spot.)

My feelings about PPs is that I can get a fine sound out of many different sorts of steels but playing an PP is a different ballgame. It has a visceral thing going on that makes me play better. It demands that if I am going to play a note I better freakin mean it. Makes my life more fun.

[Karen Sarkisian]

Fact, not myth.

yes ! at least to my ears. I haven't played a lot of guitars but of the ones I've played my push pull Emmons sounds the best. I always compare the sound of the Emmons vs all pull guitars as similar to the comparison of tube amps vs solid state. There is a 3 dimensional tone to the push pull that I dont hear on an all pull guitar. However, in the right hands it doesn't matter. A great player can make any guitar sound great.

[Richard Damron]

Herb Steiner -

Sadly, I'm suffering from the same malady. If you have a shrink who'll cure this damnable trait, then I'd love his phone number.

Wonder what the diehard PP folks would say if they knew that I play a Dekley. Heresy! Put a curse or a pox on that Damron fool!

Richard

[Mike Wheeler]

Well, I have 3 all pulls, and 1 push pull. Which one is the best?? The answer depends upon from which perspective you view the question.

The one most satisfying to play? Emmons
The one that's easiest to change copedant on? MSA
The one I would trust to take on the road? Dekley
The one that's the most fun to haul around to jams and just have fun with? MCI

The point is that every player looks at a steel with certain criteria and expectations in mind...and sometimes they even have subconscious preferences that influence their decision. More power to them! I have no problem with anyone saying their brand of steel is the best. That just tells me how much they like the guitar. Nothing wrong with excitement, eh. They don't need to PROVE anything to me, or anyone else.

I almost started on a rant about how sick I am of the PC police sticking their ugly noses into any threads that contain strong opinions, and poo-poohing those that express their strong beliefs. I like people speaking their mind...I learn many things from such people.

So, if you think an Emmons is the best ever, say so. If you think it's junk, then say so. That's what discussion is all about! Differing opinions being expressed and brought out in the open for all to see and consider.

So, down with the PC police, and up with freedom of opinion!!

OK, I'm done.

[Bent Romnes]

I love the sound of the BenRom
https://soundcloud.com/stream

[Bill Lowe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJf2GWDWeGg

[billy tam]

Jim Lindsey left my house a few minutes ago and we were having this same discussion while listening to 4 + hours of steel. From Curley Chaulker to Sez Adamson to dvd's of Jim playing several guitars including a couple of Mullen, one that he built, and a '76 Emmons p/p. Jim is a very very talented player and sounded great on all the guitars but there was something special about the Emmons. I own an Emmons and a Sho-Bud and have probably owned 25 to thirty other guitars. I love both guitars I have now but feel comfortable in saying the last one to go will be the push/pull. There are things that are difficult or impossible to do on a p/p but in nearly 40 years of playing I've spent far more time behind one than probably all the others put together.
Billy

[Carson Leighton]

Personally, I don't think it's a myth...I really don't know how to explain it,, but you know it when you play one...Are they a better sounding guitar,, well I guess that's a matter of opinion..There seems to be a mid-range sound in these guitars that's more pronounced and a depth of sound from the instrument that you can feel when you are playing it....Carson

[Donny Hinson]

Fact: I think that if there was one definitive "best" sounding guitar, that that would be the one that everyone played. However, we know that's not the case, and that different pros have always preferred different guitars, so that's no myth. Of course, I can probably guarantee that none of the pros use a particular guitar because it's easy to change copedents on, so let's throw that myth out in the trash. And anyone with engineering/machining background knows you can also throw out the myth that the push/pull was significantly more expensive to manufacture. While they took a little longer to set up, you can forget those silly statements about "complex and expensive pullers", because the fact is they are not significantly more complex or expensive when compared to most others. Lots of players came to prefer the all-pull designs because they were simply more capable, easier to set up (no tiny e-clips or shock springs) and they were far more plentiful. Those are facts.

As far as the sound goes, regardless of which brand you're talking about, everything is opinions (which means there are no facts).

Have a nice day!

[Joe Naylor]

mith or fact

I have a all wooden steel (Desert Rose)I worked with Chuck Back for several years so helped build MY steel.

I have seen a push/pull player and a great steel player in the past year or so make an all pull sound great.

I had a guy actually come up to me and say - "You will never make that beautiful steel sound like a push/pull"

I simply said "Thanks ----- I hoped not" and he almost fainted.

I have heard great players that play a "filling the steel here" and make it sound great.

As Hal Ruggs told me "Don't try to be someone else and don't worry about what they play be yourself because there ain't another one." Then he went on to say "I will never be a Buddy, Jim John, Jack or Pete - I am just gonna be Hal and that is good enough for me."

What a kind and gental man but I will always remember that and many other simple straight forward comments he made to me.

Joe Naylor
www.steelseat.com

[Mitch Ellis]

[quote="Doug Rolfe"] These are the posters opinions and nothing more. It has never been proven to be a fact. For those who believe it's a fact, to them it's a fact. To those who believe it's a myth, it's a myth. [/quote

There's your answer, Richard, in a nut shell. That's the long and the short of it. Here's a quick story. I know someone who is, to a degree, color-blind. He and I can see a red car. To me, and millions of other people, the car is red. But to him, the car is pink. I can tell him 'No, it's red.' And he'll say 'Well,if you say so, but to me it's pink.' He knows that he is color-blind. It was discovered while he was in the military. And even though he knows, based on the word of others, that the car actually is red, to him, it's still pink. And no amount of talk will change that. Because a pink car is what HE sees. To me, that's sort of how this "push-pull tone" is. I have heard many steels, p/p's and all-pull's, that sounded great. They all had at least one thing in common.....a skilled player.

Mitch

[Nathan Golub]

My feelings about PPs is that I can get a fine sound out of many different sorts of steels but playing an PP is a different ballgame. It has a visceral thing going on that makes me play better. It demands that if I am going to play a note I better freakin mean it. Makes my life more fun.

I'd agree with this.

[Dave Mudgett]

Hey, I don't want to get too philosophical here, but what the hell is a fact, anyway? Even in the hard sciences like physics, one must ultimately rely on observations, and everything is predicated on some (IMO) pretty tenuous assumptions about the relationship between what we observe and what is actually happening. My opinion - if you think that everything you think you observe is actually happening - well, I probably disagree. My guess is that if you really believe this, then you also believe that humans are incapable of bias.

And so - if we don't have an iron-clad idea what a 'fact' is, then what's a 'myth'? If it's the negation of a 'fact' that is nonetheless accepted as a 'fact', then we're hosed, right?

Is it like the Fender Stratocaster vibrato, which Leo got right the first time, and then later on made the Fender Jaguar, with a totally different (and inferior) vibrato unit?

Actually, if you read your Fender history carefully - and there are numerous books out there (Andre Duchossoir's, for example) that have (I believe, but I don't state this as absolute 'fact' - IMHO, Jody Carver is probably the only person here who can truly attest to this) authoritative original-source information about this - then you'll know that Leo's first Stratocaster vibrato design was more like the Jazzmaster/Jaguar vibrato. When they found that the original design didn't sustain a note as well as they wanted (what did they have to compare to - existing products like the Telecaster and the steel guitars), they held up the Stratocaster's production until they came up with the knife-edge/inertia-block design that had the sustain they were looking for, and ultimately went with. Which begs the obvious question - "Why did they go to the earlier-style vibrato design for the up-market Jazzmaster/Jaguar?" Or, "Which is the 'better'-sounding vibrato?"

I like the sound and feel of the push-pulls I've had (I've owned 4). I even still have a little S-10 Black Rock 3+4, which is my favorite sounding of the bunch, enough to let the others go and keep it - go figure. But I like the sound and feel of my Franklin and Zums even more. Again - go figure. No 'facts', no 'myths', just observations and opinions.

Beyond that - what difference does any of this make? If something floats your boat, be happy and take a ride on it.

[Dave Mudgett]

Here's a quick story. I know someone who is, to a degree, color-blind. He and I can see a red car. To me, and millions of other people, the car is red. But to him, the car is pink. I can tell him 'No, it's red.' And he'll say 'Well,if you say so, but to me it's pink.' He knows that he is color-blind. It was discovered while he was in the military. And even though he knows, based on the word of others, that the car actually is red, to him, it's still pink. And no amount of talk will change that. Because a pink car is what HE sees. To me, that's sort of how this "push-pull tone" is. I have heard many steels, p/p's and all-pull's, that sounded great. They all had at least one thing in common.....a skilled player.

Good example, Mitch, and I heartily agree with your final two sentences.

[Billy Knowles]

Is it fact or myth?
Where there is smoke there is fire,
The fact that it has been tone to live by for many years and it keeps coming up is fact enough for me. Most of the great solos were recorded with a PP, Buddy, Hal, Weldon, Sonny and many others.

[john widgren]

If a person is color blind, and cannot see green, they never really miss it experientially. Does that mean green does not exist?

If one cannot hear and feel the difference..there is no difference...to them.

If a tree fall in the forest... what gauge strings does it use?

[Dave Mudgett]

If a person is color blind, and cannot see green, they never really miss it experientially. Does that mean green does not exist?

The concept of "green" is a perceived thing by the brain, not an intrinsic property of the electromagnetic radiation that some people perceive as "green". The set of wavelengths that correspond to what some people perceive as green are, of course, there, but different brains process it different ways.

This really is a case of "perception = reality". The reality is the EM radiation, the perception is how the brain processes it. Green does not exist (for you) if you can't distinguish it.

One major school of thought is that differences in color processing are a result of evolutionary genetic selection - that there are or have been survival advantages to different ways of processing color. For example, certain types of color blindness actually make it easier to distinguish certain types of camouflage.

[john widgren]

Zakley!

[Ken Byng]

There is a clip here of different makes of guitar being played at a jam. The Push Pull is on last and definitely has a tone that compares favourably to the rest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pmid9RoxffU

[john widgren]

Now, the following is strictly my opinion, based on 40 years of playing professionally.

I have a lot of guitars. I see many guitars come through my shop. Among the very best available, by the most respected builders in the business. They all are great, each with it's own strengths, and individual voice. I play anything I want, not because I am wealthy,(I am not) but because it is a priority in my life.

If I could only have one (my desert Island guitar) it would be my 68 PP. (but my number two choice is REALLY close.) I hear a difference, I feel a difference, so for me, there is a difference.

Just an opinion, nothing more, no axe to grind, not really very important. Life is not black and white and nuance matters.

And I still don't see green the way the rest of the world does,(literally, green shift color blind) so cannot talk about it as an experience in the same way as someone who can.

But I know about my push-pull. No leap of faith required.

Best to all,

JW