Tuning ideas for S-12 5+4, 2x raise/2x lower?

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 27 Feb 2003 1:39 pm

I've split up my original post to make this question stand out more.

Since I'll be getting the guitar set up within the next couple of weeks, I thought I'd try to get some ideas on what to ask for as far as a specific tuning.

I've looked at a few E9 and ext. E9 charts but trying to decide on which would be best for me has been kind of futile. There are as many variations as there are players, it seems.

Any suggestions as to what might be optimal for this particular guitar would be greatly appreciated!

-Travis

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 27 Feb 2003 1:59 pm

Here's a link to a set-up on Carter's website: click here
Should would work well. However,it looks like there is a typo, it says;

"The Pedal 6 equivalent is acheived by engaging LKR, while releasing RKL. (With Triple-Raise/Triple or Double-Lower, P6 raises String 4 back to E and lowers String 8 to D.)"

I think it should read "by engaging LKR, while releasing RKR" That way the 4th string would return to E, while the 8th string is lowered to D, which gives the 6th pedal equivalent.
Good luck.[This message was edited by Bill Moore on 27 February 2003 at 02:12 PM.]

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 27 Feb 2003 3:15 pm

Depends what you want to accomplish. More country, or more jazz?

Here's the tuning for my Carter S12 4 + 5, it's on the country side of things:

Happy twangin',

Drew Howard

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www.newslinkassociates.com
www.drewhoward.com

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 28 Feb 2003 6:42 pm

Thanks Drew, for the input. It's pretty interesting looking at the different copedants everybody has, but it's definitely confusing. I hardly even know what questions to ask.

It seems like there are some definite standards that everybody has somewhere on their guitar, like a knee lever that raises two of the E's to F. I suppose I'll keep these standard changes, but deciding what to do with the leftover two pedals is tricky.

One thing that I like on your chart is having that E to F lever also drop the low E to C#, and the -D/C# lever also drop the low D to C#. Then it seems to me that with the A pedal and a couple of knee levers you get a sort of strummable C#7 (except for the F# in the middle) with a nice 1-5-1 power chord in the bass.

It's not so much that I HAVE to rock, it's just that that's about the only level on which I can understand these crazy tunings!

-Travis

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 1 Mar 2003 9:55 am

Just curious I guess...

What brand/model/year of steel is this?

Does it have round or square or hex or ? cross shafts?

Do you have extra bell cranks, rods and tuning assemblys or are you working within the limitation of existing original parts?

What is the current copedant and why don't you like it?

Do you have any slave-block assemblys to get around the 2 raise/lower limitation?

What bands/songs represent the style of music you want to play with this copedant?

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 1 Mar 2003 12:28 pm

To respond to your first and last questions, Pete, it's a Linkon II from (probably) the eighties, and I'm interested in playing any and every kind of music that I can (as I feel inspired). Recently I've been enjoying two Bill Frisell albums, namely "Nashville" (jazzy country music) and "Blues Dream" (sort of countrified blues in a jazzy way

, featuring Greg Leisz). These two albums have been particularly inspiring.

As for your other questions, I have no idea! They're great questions though, and I should find out the answers (as I said I have no idea what questions to ask, this is all new to me). I should note that I've never actually seen the guitar except in pictures, apparently it's being fixed (broken tuner) and isn't even strung up right now.

I'm probably working within the limitations of existing parts, since I can't really afford to buy extra bell cranks or what have you right now. My plan is to find out what I want for my copedant, then send that off and find out if that can be done within the limitations of what's available, then work from there.

-Travis

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 1 Mar 2003 4:01 pm

What's wrong with the existing setup?

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 1 Mar 2003 7:12 pm

You know, that's a really good question! I actually don't know specifically how the guitar is set up right now. I can't believe I haven't asked. I'll do that.

-Travis

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 2 Mar 2003 7:00 pm

Here's the chart:
<pre>
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 LKL LKR RKL RKR
1 F#
2 D# -D
3 G# +A -G
4 E +F# -Eb +F
5 B +C# +C# -Bb
6 G# +A -G
7 F# +G
8 E -Eb +F
9 D
10 B +C#
11 G# +A
12 E
</pre>
I'm considering getting rid of the P5 3rd string -G and switching it to an RKR 12th string -C#.

Any thoughts?

-Travis

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Mar 2003 8:42 pm

I've never found the third string lower (G# to G) to be real useful. I know it's useful in theory, but I have it on my Williams and rarely hit it.

In rock, I find that I use the 12th string E to D change on the third pedal more than I use the F lever's low E to C#. In country, I use the F lever change more. Something to consider.

Since you don't have any spare parts, have you thought of removing a pedal? I probably would. If you can cobble together a couple of pull rods, you could do this with your existing bell cranks: <pre> P1 P2 P3 P4 LKL LKR RKL RKR
1 F#
2 D# -D
3 G# +A
4 E +F# -Eb +F
5 B +C# +C#
6 G# +A -G
7 F# +G#
8 E -Eb +F
9 D
10 B +C#
11 G# +A -G
12 E -D</pre>

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 02 March 2003 at 08:44 PM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 2 Mar 2003 10:20 pm

Travis,
Do yourself a favor and don't change a thing.
That setup is totally playable as is.

The G# to G on P5 gives you a minor chord of whatever open chord you're playing.
It's a handy and fun change. Very musical sounding.

The F# to G on LKR gives you a 7th with A+B (P1+P2 as per your chart).
It fits any type of Statesboro Blues style jams.

This is a fine setup to have dropped into your life.

"Play"... "Learn"... "Play!"
(don't "Tinker").

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 02 March 2003 at 10:21 PM.]

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 3 Mar 2003 11:38 am

You know what, Pete, you're absolutely right.

I'm just gonna take it as is.

-Travis

Steven Black · Post by **Steven Black** » 13 Mar 2003 4:10 am

Hey does anybody have a chart for a six pedal
double raise double lower U12?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 13 Mar 2003 5:59 am

Bill Moore,

You are correct. I feel confident that is merely a typo. I am certain Bud Carter would be the first to agree.

On a side note..."A 12 string with 5 and 4"?

I think your FIRST order of business should be to determine WHETHER or not you want to go with extended E9th or a universal 12. Because to me this is a major decision LONG before you decide on what pedals and knee levers you want; and where you want them. While these tunings are similar, in practicality they are worlds a part, IMO.

Extended E9th is just two more strings added to a standard E9th setup. A universal combines both a D-10's E9th and C6th tunings.

Once you have determined which route you wish to go, THEN it is time to determine what changes you want and where you want them.

If I were to be confined to just 5 pedals and 4 knee levers on a universal (I don't care for extended E9th), it would be setup as follows: (since I do not know how to make charts I will just list what each pedal and knee lever does--a chart can be easily drawn from this)

1. Do away with the C pedal AND insist the guitar have a 5th knee lever. Absolute MUST. NO way around it IMO.

2. Pedal 1 raises 5, 9 and 12 a whole tone.

3. Pedal 2 raises 3, 6 and 10 a half a tone.

4. Pedal 3 raises 1 a half a tone, lowers 7 a half a tone, raises 11 a half a tone and raises 12 a whole tone.

5. Pedal 4 raises 5 and 6 a whole tone.

6. Pedal 5 raises 1 a whole tone, 2 a half a tone, raises 9 a half a tone, lowers 11 a half a tone and lowers 12 a tone and a half.

7. LKL raises 4, 8 and 11 a half a tone.

8. LKV lowers 5 a half a tone.

9. LKR lowers 2 a whole tone, and lowers 4 and 8 a half a tone,

10. RKL lowers 2 a half a tone, raises 9 and 10 a tone and a half.

11. RKR raises 4 a half a tone and lowers 8 a whole tone.

(NOTE: I would use my right foot on pedal 5 for various combinations of boowah, PF knee lever, and pedals 1, 2 and 3. Also, when transitioning from a dominant 7th 'RKL' to a tonic chord on pedals 1 and 2 using strings 2, 3 and 5).

Finally, one second after I received the guitar, I would install a 2nd Left knee left and raise 4 and 8 whole tone. NO two ways about it.

In summation, a 12 string universal guitar with just 5 and 4 is simply NOT enough changes to be satisfactory IMO. I truly believe you will discover this in a short amount of time if you wish to play a lot of different types of music.

If your decision is to go with a U-12, you might as well do it right up front; than to cuss it down the road. If your decision is to go with extended E9th, 5 and 4 would still be somewhat limited, but probably OK.

I am sorry for so many edits to this post. But every time I look at it, I have made yet another typo.

May Jesus bless you in your quests,

carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 13 March 2003 at 06:02 AM.][This message was edited by C Dixon on 13 March 2003 at 06:06 AM.][This message was edited by C Dixon on 13 March 2003 at 06:14 AM.][This message was edited by C Dixon on 13 March 2003 at 06:37 AM.][This message was edited by C Dixon on 13 March 2003 at 06:43 AM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 13 Mar 2003 11:07 am

Hey Travis,
Did you get this axe yet?
I hope you are playing it!... and not dismantling it!!!
Let us know how it is going!

Steven Black · Post by **Steven Black** » 13 Mar 2003 12:52 pm

never mind about the chart the one carter shows will work.

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 13 Mar 2003 3:22 pm

I haven't got it yet, but it won't be long now. Within a week or two. I can't wait.

I really appreciate everybody's suuggestions and I've saved tham all. In the end I decided to go with the already existing copedant. If I feel like it's not working for me then I'll look into changing it but that moment is a long way off, I think.

There are a couple of people I think I can probably get lessons from in Vancouver, but I'm waiting for the guitar to arrive before I pursue that in earnest.

In the mean time I got Scott DeWitt's E9 book and Rusty Young's book from the library and have been going over those. I think Rusty's book is pretty good, and I've already learned some interesting things from both. Maybe I'll see if I can get some other instructional books on inter-library loan or something (man, what would I do without the library?).

-Travis