D-10 copedant for the rest of time. What?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 11 Mar 2003 11:15 am

Another WIDE question I will limit to D-10, E9 and C6. I hear the net wires sizzle in the back ground.
Ideally 8+7 LKL LKV LKR, LKLc C6, RKL2 RKL1 RKR
I have been looking and asking, and changing my mind over and over again... and it is decision time.
Besides the simple book version. What is the best extrapolation from the standard book stuff for this above layout.
Yes, I know it's not really FOREVER... but if it were?[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 12 March 2003 at 10:31 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 Mar 2003 11:32 am

I don't think that RKV is a good idea. It's too hard to work the volume pedal.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 11 Mar 2003 12:20 pm

A note, it is NOW correctly stated... there was something bugging me besides the LKL center for C6 being missing. As usual b0b you have quick eyes. merci b0b[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 12 March 2003 at 10:32 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 11 Mar 2003 3:24 pm

Well this hasn't turned into the grand dog fight I imagined. But no matter.
I have no PSG techs within 1000km of me, so I have hoped to get it close to right the 1st time, but I guess that won't happen...
Though I have seen some very good discusions here. Learned a lot in a short period of time. But not nearlly enough.

There is only so much copedant analysis and advanced music theory a brain can take in a short period of time.. and still have a life.
DRAT, caderack and offendicum.*
* W.C. Fields

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Mar 2003 6:42 pm

Were I to be starting now, I'd probably use Tommy White's (Day) setup. But I think Paul Franklin's or Buddy Emmons' would be good too. My own opinion? If you're just starting...don't try to "re-invent the wheel". I'm a firm believer in the fact that, for many years, your ability will limit you far more than your setup.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 12 Mar 2003 1:13 am

Yes I agree, but at the same time I want jazz voicings so it needs to have that quickly available. I want as flexible a set up as possible from day one, without losing the book learning stuff.
Droopypawn was trying to reinvent the wheel and I saw the posts related to that.
I have picked Buddy's currently listed set up minus the Ab lever C6 for the moment.

And moving a RKL2 to a LKL centered for C6 for a couple of reasons :
I never found a clear use for it in E9 so far, bumping it with right kneein C6, not having the Bb's in C6., Jeff L. STRONGLY recomended the Bb's.
I do want to get 1 or 2 more levers; LKR centered and LKV centered, to do C6 without 2 feet when neccesary. Somtimes you must double foot it, but I am sure there is a way to combine 1 foot and 2 knees to get the most out of C6, which I already play without pedals / levers.

But this question above still interests me. If you were pinned down now what would you want for a copedant. And it was welded into place hypothetically....
It kind of shifts the wheat from the chaff for me. I would like to see any copedant that will fit on a steel D-10 10+10 ??
Fantasy, maybe, but I am thinking of seeing the culmination at this point of;
"If I had my druthers" PSG logic.

If you ordered a $10,000 Millenium how would you set it up?[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 12 March 2003 at 10:36 AM.]

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 12 Mar 2003 6:07 am

David, if you get an all-pull guitar, any of the well known brands like Carter, Williams, Zum, Sierra, GFI, etc. you can pretty much change the set-up any time you want. It would be handy to have some extra rods and spare parts, but it's really not a big deal to make changes, as long as the levers are located where you want them. A guitar with 8 levers gives you infinite possibilities. But, get a standard setup to begin with, you may never need to change it much.

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Bill Moore...
my steel guitar web page

[This message was edited by Bill Moore on 12 March 2003 at 06:10 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Mar 2003 8:12 am

That's true. On most modern pedal steels, it's not hard to change the copedent yourself.

I don't like the idea of two RKLs, but that's just me. Here's my recommendation: use Buddy Emmons' standard pedals 1 thru 8 on both necks, and set up the knee levers like this: <pre> LKL LKV LKR LKLc LKVc LKRc RKL RKR
F# +G#
D# +E -D/C#
G#
E +F -D#
B -A#
G# -F#
F#
E +F -D#
D -C#
B -A#
---------------
D
E -Eb
C -B +C#
A -Ab +Bb
G
E +F
C
A (-Ab) (+Bb)
F
C</pre>This is all pretty much standard stuff, I know, but it's standard for a reason. The best steel minds in the world have burned a lot of calories distilling the combinations and possibilities. You can benefit from all that effort by just using the end result.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax<F[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 12 March 2003 at 08:26 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 12 Mar 2003 8:26 am

Bobby Lee > "The best steel minds in the world have burned a lot of calories distilling the combinations and possibilities. You can benefit from all that effort by just using the end result."
And so I shall, but also keep on the search for possibilities too. And collect copedants for study, so when I miss something I can get some ideas how to find it.

The 2nd RKL is toast; now a C6 LKL for those bluesy Bb's The Sho-Bud is pretty adjustable, but I want it set up and then mess with it when I can't find something.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Mar 2003 8:27 am

I just edited my post to add two more C6th levers.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Mar 2003 9:03 am

I kinda agree with Bobby here. Any player (who's not been at it for at least 20 years) who thinks they can't "get along" with what the three top players in the world are using...will, more than likely, waste a lot of valuable time thinking "I can come up with something better".

No disrespect intended, but I think you're kidding yourself.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 12 Mar 2003 10:30 am

Donny none taken.
In general I do agree with you. The masters use what they have for a reason. But ALSO within that group there are several variations.. and there are reasons for that too.
Jeff Lampert doesn't play a stock set up and he does magic, that others I have heard do not and his copedant is designed to create that difference.
I am not looking for the classic Nashville sound. But much more in Jeff's direction. I also know my composing style. It's needs will dictate more than convention.

Bobby I think I like that LKVc!

Donny case in point Mr. Bobby Lee. Always trying something new to see what it does.
I imagine he should have been a rocket scientist instead of a PSG player to wrap his head around the number of different steels and setups he has listed!
Reinventing the wheel wasn't done overnight but in 10,000 little increments building off the last.. and many were dead ends, but I am glad someone took them anyway.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Mar 2003 4:48 pm

Actually, most of the quirks in my own copedents are the result of floundering about when I didn't understand what I was doing. I ended up pushing myself into strange musical corners because I have been using poorly designed copedents for so long.

The copedents I described above are much better than the ones I play, for virtually all styles of music.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 12 Mar 2003 5:19 pm

Interesting Bobby, but I don't see that you have removed them yet either. So you must be still experimenting. And why not experiment!