My New Copedant

DroopyPawn · Post by **DroopyPawn** » 10 Mar 2003 5:04 pm

Since I've ordered a new Keyless Sierra Session 12, I want to update my copedant to something more playable and modern without changing what I already have too much.

Here's what's currently on my guitar. I mainly use the D & F levers and the LKL lever (franklin sound) along with the A & B pedals most of the time.

And here's my new idea.

I played several steel at the Dallas show this weekend and many of them had the D to C# change I was thinking of adding. I was going to put it on the Eb lever but Joe Wright said that would eliminate some 9th chords. I hadn't realy thought about raising the first 2 strings but it seems like a popular change. I just don't know what I would do with it. Seems like it fits right in with that D to C# drop though.

I'm also considering adding a F# to G# raise on the A pedal. Anyone see a problem there?

I realize that some of the levers and pedals may be stiff with 3 changes each but I figure I can remove the changes on the lower strings if that gets to be a problem. Just loosen the pull rod until it doesn't pull anymore. What I'm going for is a similar setup in the upper and lower strings. So basically, I'll be able to play the same licks in diferent octaves with no problem.

I like the G# to G lever because that makes a minor 2 chord easily available by moving up 2 frets (in a no pedal position). I've split the Franklin pedal into pedals 4 & 5 to give more flexibility. Same sound as bending the A pedal down while the B pedal is already down. Then if I want the Franklin sound, I can do pedals 4 & 5 together.

I haven't used the X lever much but I found some ways to use it at the Jeff Newman class this weekend.

Now, if I was going to add one more lever, say to raise B to C, where would I put it? Seems like another vertical lever on the right leg would be ok but it might cause problems with the voume pedal. So do I go for a deeper RKL?

Anyone see any other changes that might be useful with this setup?
Thanks in advance for your ideas.

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[This message was edited by DroopyPawn on 10 March 2003 at 05:04 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 10 Mar 2003 5:46 pm

Gary,
There's a whole lot more meat in what's on there now. I'm not sure where that 2nd string lower combined with the B to Bb changes came from but, other than that, everything there makes a lot of sense.

If you're intent on changing, there are a few points to ponder:
* Most players like to be able to get D#, D, and C# on the second string while changing as little of the rest of the tuning as possible.
* I don't think you'll be able to talk an 011 into lowering a whole tone. The other two G# to F# changes should work fine
* I wouldn't lower the bottom E on RKL. It's much more useful as an E (root of an EMa7 chord) with the other two lowered.
* Lowering 2 a whole tone on the vertical with the Bb's prevents you from getting the cool unison C# with the A pedal (basis of a lot of Buddy Emmons stuff)
* G# to G is the most expendable change on your chart. If you want a iim, that's what the B+C pedals are for. It does have uses, but a better use for that lever would be to put the 2nd string D# to D, perhaps to C# with a half-stop and lower 9 to C# on that same lever.
* DON'T RAISE F# TO G# ON YOUR A PEDAL -- in fact, for a 5x5 guitar, I strongly advise sticking to standard changes. They have all evolved for a reason. Figure out what that reason is before you go changing it.
* Learn to half-pedal the A pedal or split it with the Bb lever to get C.
All-in-all my recommendation is not to combine too many changes that interfere with the standard changes. I would consider the A, B, and C pedals, plus the levers that raise and lower the E's a half step, and the 2nd/9th string change described above to be BY FAR the most important changes that should not have anything added to them.

Just my opinion . . .

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 10 Mar 2003 5:59 pm

What Larry said.

I wouldn't bother with G#>G, move your 2nd string Eb>D>C# drops to the RKR.

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Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Mar 2003 6:03 pm

Just a few random thoughts...

I don't think you'll be able to lower the 3rd string to F# on that guitar. Seems to me that I tried it once on mine, and the changer wouldn't move that far.

I think you'll find the 12th string lower on RKL unnecessary. The major 7th formed by not lowering the 12th string is very nice sometimes, like the F string on a C6th. D# is the 3rd of B, and it's not often that you want the 3rd as the bass note.

Thanks for sharing, and kudos for your "less is more" approach.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

DroopyPawn · Post by **DroopyPawn** » 10 Mar 2003 8:44 pm

Thanks Larry.....

* Most players like to be able to get D#, D, and C# on the second string while changing as little of the rest of the tuning as possible.
That seems to be a common idea. But why? Got any examples where I might use D and/or C#?

* I don't think you'll be able to talk an 011 into lowering a whole tone. The other two G# to F# changes should work fine
I thought the same thing but the owner of Sierra seems to think it will work. If not, no big deal.

* I wouldn't lower the bottom E on RKL. It's much more useful as an E (root of an EMa7 chord) with the other two lowered.
Point taken. I'll go ahead and put the change on the guitar anyway. It won't cost anything to add it and it's easy to remove if I don't like it.

* Lowering 2 a whole tone on the vertical with the Bb's prevents you from getting the cool unison C# with the A pedal (basis of a lot of Buddy Emmons stuff)
OK. Where would you put that?

* G# to G is the most expendable change on your chart. If you want a iim, that's what the B+C pedals are for. It does have uses, but a better use for that lever would be to put the 2nd string D# to D, perhaps to C# with a half-stop and lower 9 to C# on that same lever.
I'm just a rookie but I'm not sure how that would be "better". The -G lever also makes a major minor 7th chord with the A & B pedals. Of course, I'm still interested in anything folks have to say.

* DON'T RAISE F# TO G# ON YOUR A PEDAL -- in fact, for a 5x5 guitar, I strongly advise sticking to standard changes. They have all evolved for a reason. Figure out what that reason is before you go changing it.
Again, it would be an easy change to remove. Why do you say don't do it? Any particular reason? Or are you just saying stay with the "norm"?

* Learn to half-pedal the A pedal or split it with the Bb lever to get C.
All-in-all my recommendation is not to combine too many changes that interfere with the standard changes. I would consider the A, B, and C pedals, plus the levers that raise and lower the E's a half step, and the 2nd/9th string change described above to be BY FAR the most important changes that should not have anything added to them.
I agree, sort of, with all of the above. But I don't really care for 1/2 pedals. I don't see where there's any interference with the "main changes" on this copedant. Could you point them out?

Thanks for all the ideas. I haven't finalized this and I'm stil listening to what more experience folks have to say. On the other hand, I have a minor in music/theory and I've been playing for nearly 20 years on other instruments with great success. So I can't count out my own ideas either.

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DroopyPawn · Post by **DroopyPawn** » 10 Mar 2003 8:48 pm

Drew howard said......
What Larry said.
I wouldn't bother with G#>G, move your 2nd string Eb>D>C# drops to the RKR.

And I say.......
Ok. But why? Don't take that the wrong way. I really want to know why?

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DroopyPawn · Post by **DroopyPawn** » 10 Mar 2003 8:54 pm

Response to Bobbe Lee.
Thanks for your thoughts. Thought I'm not sure what you mean by "Less is more." About the 3rd string lower.... It's interesting...... While working on my guitar at the Dallas show, I messed it up really good. I had the 3rd string raising a minor 3rd. (Yes, 3 half steps.) I don't remember what I did but it was a big surprise when I sat down and hit that B pedal. I think I just moved the rod to a lower bell crank slot. That being ,the case, I think the drop to --F# will work.

And you may be right about lowering the 12th string. But as I said above, I can tune that change out quickly. Maybe even between songs if I was ever playing steel in a band. Right now, my intentions are just being able to record steel tracks in my studio.

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Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 10 Mar 2003 9:10 pm

Droopster,
Them's a lot o'questions. I'll try to take them one at a time.
1. Second string
You have EMaj triads all over the place. The second string adds a Maj7 (D#), Dom7 (D), and Ma6 (C#). Certainly not the only way to achieve those chords, but if you intend to use ANY instructional material, it will be written to include those permutations. If you are going your own way and don't care to play stuff others have, all bets are off and you can do whatever makes sense to you. If you do intend to use courses and seminars (and it sounds like you do if you attended Jeff's seminar), you will get more out of them with a more standard copedent.
2. G# to F# on third string
If he can pull it off, fine. BTW, I assume that your 3rd string BROKE when you raised it to B. If it didn't we'd all be interested in what gauge and brand it was. I'd be surprised if an 011 would make it to Bb, let alone B. I wouldn't want to be standing too close to THAT fire.
3. Where to put the 2nd string change
I would do as Drew and I suggested and can the G# to G. RKR is a common place to change the 2nd string. The B+C combination would be better because it's ALREADY THERE and you don't have to move your bar to go from a IMaj to a iim.
4. F# to G# on the A pedal is the biggest faux pas in your thinking, IMHO. It's a great change, but BY ITSELF. Once again, you have a pedals down iim7 that you lose, with the root on the 7th string. That pedals down F#mi7 or A6 chord is a very useful position to play out of -- much more so than the Maj7
5. If you don't care for half pedaling, you can split the A pedal with the Bb lever to get the C. Look at others' setups. I can't ever recall seeing B to C on ANYONE's guitar. There IS a reason: it's redundant. You either half-pedal or split the whole tone raise with the half-tone lower.

It's wonderful that you understand theory and have applied it to other instruments, but it's also important to realize that there's 50 years of history on this instrument and many of our icons (Buddy Emmons, Curly Chalker, Doug Jernigan, Maurice Anderson to name but a few) are very well versed in the practical aspects of music theory AND, more importantly, how it applies to pedal steel. That's not to say that there are no useful changes that somebody hasn't thought of (holy cow! that's a triple negative

) but giving some benefit of the doubt to those who have been at this for decades deserves serious consideration. Buddy Emmons' copedent is a work of art that should be studied carefully on both necks to understand and benefit from the man's genius.

Good luck. I hope this helps explain my points and helps you with your decisions. If I were you, I would seriously look at Bobby Lee's copedent. If you're going the ExtE9 route, he's a great one to listen to. I prefer the full E9/B6 universal route, because I play almost as much swingy/jazzy stuff as the more diatonic E9 style and that's where it's at on a S-12. But that's just me (I guess).[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 10 March 2003 at 10:04 PM.]

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 11 Mar 2003 11:01 am

Hey Gary (Droopy),
Don't fall for the argument about "accepted" changes as that's what breeds so many sound alike steel players in our midst. I like your knee lever which lowers 3 & 6 but I think I'd change places with your LKR and put your F lever on the RKR. Your G# lowers are useful with your E's lowered in the B6 mode but you can't get to them where you have them and you can't use your E raises and lowers together. A good place to put your 2nd string lower to C# would be with your RKL. I agree with the others about not lowering your low E with your RKR. You do need that string open for some grips. At one time I raised my low E to F# with the 4 & 8 lowers and it was a great change but the tradeoff with the maj7 thing wasn't worth it.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 Mar 2003 11:29 am

By "less is more", I was referring to the fact that you've dropped two pedals from your old copedent.

I think that it's not a good idea to gang the 2nd string lower with the 5th string lower. For example, it's very common to lower the 2nd string to D with pedals down for scale runs (key of C, 3rd fret). It's also common to lower the 2nd string to D for a 7th chord, and you wouldn't want the B string altered for that.

Tommy White has a very interesting RKR that you might want to consider:

lower 2nd string to D/C#
raise 7th string to G
lower 9th string to C#

I've simplified it on my guitars to:

lower 2nd string to D
raise 7th string to G

The usage conflicts between the 2nd and 7th strings are rare. Of course it would mean giving up your G# to G lower lever. I have my G# to G changes on a pedal.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 11 Mar 2003 3:37 pm

b0b which pedal and why?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 Mar 2003 3:49 pm

Joe Wright lowers his G#'s to G on his first pedal, next to the "A" pedal. That's real good for an A7th position.

I've been moving it around on my guitars lately. Since my "C" pedal isn't raising E to F#, it seems to work pretty well next to that. Look at P5 on the Williams in my signature below.

I only use G# to G for the Em and A7 positions. I'm sure there are other uses that I've never explored, and there are probably good reasons to put it on a knee lever instead of a pedal. But for my limited uses, a pedal works fine.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 Mar 2003 3:54 pm

BTW, my Williams chart is a little out of date. I'm now tuning my 7th string to F#, and lowering it to E on LKR. P1 is wrong too - I'm raising D# to E and middle F# to G# on it.