Buddy Emmons tempered tuning

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 4 Mar 2003 9:36 am

Does anyone know how to transpose Buddy's tempered tunings for E9th,and C6th from "cents" to "hertz"? Thanks in advance.
They are posted on his website.

Mike Kowalik · Post by **Mike Kowalik** » 4 Mar 2003 9:49 am

This has been discussed a few times...I think the conversion is something like 1 hertz equals 4 cents....so 435 hertz would equal -20 cents.I maybe wrong..but I think this is it.

Bob Tuttle · Post by **Bob Tuttle** » 4 Mar 2003 9:51 am

Kenny,.....Take the "cents" number and divide it by 4. Add or subtract this number to 440. Example: +8 cents divided by 4 = 2. Add this to 440 and your "hertz" reading will be 442. minus 12 "cents" (-12) divided by 4 = -3. The "hertz" reading would be 437. Hope this helps.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 4 Mar 2003 10:20 am

Are you talking about the way BE tunes NOW? Or when he used to tune JI?

He now tunes very close to ET on all strings and all pedals; and knee lever changes. So everthing is pretty close to straight up 440 (referenced). He may very slightly flatten (no where near JI) his thirds to compensate for any temperature drift in the sharp direction.

So does Weldon Myrick and a few others. Bill Stafford tunes straight up across the board also.

Or this is my understanding from many posts on this forum and in personal talks with him.

carl

Mike Kowalik · Post by **Mike Kowalik** » 4 Mar 2003 11:35 am

Kenny...could you tell me where on the site are the tuning charts located.I looked but couldn't find them.

Bob Tuttle · Post by **Bob Tuttle** » 4 Mar 2003 12:47 pm

Mike,....Click on the Cool Links. The Tempered tuning charts are on the left side of the page, right below the picture of the Emmons D-10.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 4 Mar 2003 1:14 pm

I just went to Ernie Renns official Buddy Emmons website. I finally found the chart I think you are talking about. It is from the Emmons' company and it shows their tempered tuning.

Unless I am mistaken this has nothing to do with BE's tuning. So we may be talking about two different things here. In the chart it shows the Emmons' company recommended temperament.

But I am almost positive Buddy does not use this temperament. This chart is almost a pure JI chart similar to Jeff Newman's chart, with the exception that Jeff uses a 442.5 reference rather than a 440 reference as shown in the Emmons Company chart.

Note how very flat the F's are on the F lever. Also note the D note on the 2nd string. Note how sharp the F#'s are. If one tunes this way and does NOT compensate, those F#'s will be WAY out of tune with the C#'s when the A pedal is engaged. This is typical of JI shifts from 440.

Again, Unless BE has changed recently I KNOW he tunes to mostly straight 440. Of course, I stand corrected if I am wrong.

carl

Chandler Holt · Post by **Chandler Holt** » 5 Mar 2003 8:10 am

If you tune to straight 440, does this not drive you crazy to hear the 3rd. It seems that any stringed instrument has to have the 3rd tempered or compensated in some manner?
I am a new player and this issue has been giving me some problems.
I have noticed that my minor chords are off when I use the position with only the A pedal down.

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 5 Mar 2003 8:58 am

If you tune to straight 440, does this not drive you crazy to hear the 3rd...

Yes.. I've read these tuning threads time and again, and I've tried most of the methods. I finally just tuned everything straight up, flattened the G#s 'to taste' as you suggest, and that was it for me. I couldn't quite tolerate that straight up 3rd.

I've found that when I can tune by ear, which I prefer, and then check with a tuner afterwards, that's basically where I end up. I think I play in tune pretty well.

I also believe that good players play in tune intuitively, given that the guitar itself is reasonably close. Playing in tune is not a purely mechanical excercise IMO..

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Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 5 Mar 2003 9:18 am

Bill, do you tune every string to 440, then re-adjust the G#'s? Also, do you do this with pedals down?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 5 Mar 2003 9:20 am

Yes Chandler,

It DOES drive many of us crazy. But strangely there ARE players who tune this way. Both Weldon Myrick AND Buddy Emmons tuned JI for over 30 yrs only to migrate to ET (straight up 440). As far as I know, my dear friend Bill Stafford has always tuned straight 440. I know he does now in any case. And there are others who tune straight up 440. Some of the western swing type players like Noel Boggs often tuned straight 440 on tunings like E13th. This is because this tuning can NOT be tuned straight JI using ANY two strings. It is the same problem, E9th players have trying to make the F#'s in tune with pedals up versus down when tuning JI.

I think MOST players tune some where more or less towards JI from ET. I personally tune dead on JI wherever possible. A few cases on C6th (B6 on U-12's) and in one case on E9th, I tune ET. But mostly JI everywhere else. But then I don't play in a band. And that can make a big difference.

I get a lot of flack and flames for saying this, but in my heart and soul I beieve ET is the ONLY correct way even though I can't stand it personally.

God bless you all,

carl

Chandler Holt · Post by **Chandler Holt** » 5 Mar 2003 10:08 am

Excuse my ignorance but I don't know what ET & JI stand for.
Also, when playing with a band does the straight up tuning sound correct? ("correct" meaning are the 3rds noticeably sharp or do they sound sweet?) Also, does the straight up tuning allow 1st pedal minor chords sound more in tune?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 5 Mar 2003 10:26 am

ET stands for Equal Temperament. JI stands for Just Intonation.

ET is often explained as 12 notes equally spaced apart in tonal width (not physical width such as on a fretboard).

JI is often explained as being harmonically pure. That is; NO beats between given harmonics of any two notes (or strings in our case).

Volumes have been written on it. For hundreds of years it has been debated. It has been hashed and rehashed over and over on this forum for years. Like many things in life, it a scientific mystery that will NEVER be solved. Not on earth anyway. In heaven EVERY thing will be perfect. Praise Jesus.

Chet ATkins said it best on the stage once when he said,

"If I EVER get this Git' tar in tune I am going to solder it!!"

The answers to your other questions would be tooooo subjective for me to respond to.

carl

Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 5 Mar 2003 10:27 am

I like the Emmons tuning chart a lot more than Newman's.

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Pro III Custom; Sho-Bud LLG; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Panther amp

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 5 Mar 2003 11:08 am

Chris, yes, I tune all open strings to 440, and I know that on my TU-12 tuner, about two 'marks' flat is where I hear the G#s in tune open. All that is done 'pedals up'. If the joint is really noisy, I just go with that. If it's quiet enough to hear, I may tweak the G#s again by ear with pedals down, sorta split the difference I guess? Crazy routine I guess, but it seems to work for me.

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[This message was edited by Bill Terry on 05 March 2003 at 11:09 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 5 Mar 2003 11:43 am

Bill T
What you describe is pretty much how I approach it. But what about C#'s and F's -- are you telling us you tune THOSE TO STRAIGHT UP 440? Also how do you tweak the G#'s with pedals down?

I flat the G#'s about 4 cents; C#'s 4-8 cents; and F's 8-12 cents -- AND tune the E's with A+B down. Everything else is pretty much 440. Works for me.

And, by the way, Buddy Emmons DOES use a tempered tuning. ET (the T stands for Temperament).

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 05 March 2003 at 01:09 PM.]

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 5 Mar 2003 1:21 pm

Larry, no I don't tune the F or C# changes straight up, I tune those by ear. I've checked on a tuner afterwards and they end up flat, but I don't remember how much. I seldom, if ever, have to touch the changer on a gig. I tune E's straight up, pedals up.

As far as tweaking the G#s with pedals down, what I'm talking about is actually tweaking the A's at the tuning machine, not the changer (like a P/P), to sound in tune in an A chord, then re-checking the pedals up G#s by ear again. I'm sure that sounds strange, but it's how I do it... Obviously if your changer is out of tune, that process will never converge

.

BTW, I have a P/P and a LeGrande, and I use more or less the same 'method'(?) for both.

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Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 10 Mar 2003 4:18 am

The chart in question is: Here. It is the chart used by Emmons Guitar when they tune a guitar at the factory. Ron Lashley, Sr. told me it was derived directly from Buddy's tuning on the black album.

Buddy currently tunes to 440, (with the thirds at around 438.5,) and has for quite a while.

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My best,
Ernie

The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com

KEVIN OWENS · Post by **KEVIN OWENS** » 10 Mar 2003 3:41 pm

If ET is straight up 440 but Buddy tweaks (not 440) then he is not tuning to ET straight up 440. I'm I right or does 2+2=3.9999999999

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 10 Mar 2003 3:57 pm

IMHO, nobody tunes everything on E9 to 440 and plays in tune. You hear a lot of folks claim to and the result is one of two things:
1. they're telling a 'little white lie' about the thirds OR
2. they're out of tune enough to raise the little hairs on the back of your neck

I'd love to hear someone prove me wrong, but, like others, I've tried it and 438.5 was about as close as I could come and keep my dinner down. I believe Buddy said something similar.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 10 March 2003 at 04:20 PM.]

Fred Rushing · Post by **Fred Rushing** » 10 Mar 2003 6:59 pm

I do believe that how you tune is a personal thing. Back about 1980 or so on a sunday afternoon at hall in St. Charles, Mo Scotty had Buddy Emmons in for a concert. I still hahave a cassette I made sitting in the crowd that day. At the break I went up on the bandstand and plucked the strings out of curiosty. My mouth fell open to my chest. The beats between the Root thirds and 5ths were as audable as night is to day It sounded very much out of tune to ear. Back then They used a korg analog tuner for root . I was on the E9th neck only. But ALAS Buddy sounded as he always does Perfect. For what its worth. Fred.

Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 11 Mar 2003 2:10 am

Buddy said if the conditions were stable and controlled, he'd probably tune everything to 440. He mentioned doing it in the studio some time back. But he said it was real strange to tune it all to 440 and it worked.

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My best,
Ernie

The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 11 Mar 2003 3:34 am

Buddy probably doesn't play some notes open together when the bar is up, out of stylistic habit, so that isn't an issue for him. But he has a particular left hand way (understatement!) and his tuning works for him like that. Same as most greats.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 11 Mar 2003 11:13 am

You don't really "convert" cents to hertz, per se. Hertz is frequency and cents is distance between frequencies, intervals. For example, in the octave between A-110hz and A-220hz, there are 110 integer frequencies, 110, 111, 112, 113.... In the octave between A-440hz and A-880hz, there are 440 integer frequencies, yet each octave has 1200 cents.

To find the frequency (hertz) say 15 cents above A-440, you would multiply 440 X the 1200th root of 2 to the 15th power = 443.82hz. To find the frequency 15 cents below A-440, you would divide 440 by the 1200th root of 2 to the 15th power = 436.20.