When did the G 1st string become a D on C6?

Bob Smith · Post by **Bob Smith** » 6 Mar 2003 7:02 pm

Im a new player that spends most(all) of my time with the E9 tuning. I have noticed that a D on the 1 st String of the back neck(C6) seems to be the standard these days.How long has this been the norm? Who sets the standards for this kind of thing? And what was wrong with the G up there anyway? Didnt all the C6 heroes from yesteryear have a G up there instead of a D? Im just curious as hell. Wonderin bob

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 6 Mar 2003 8:28 pm

When someone decided that one chromatic tuning wasn't enough?
I give up, when?

I might say that It ain't a standard thing yet, and possibly it may never be, but then again, only time will tell. And I'm about out of it. Bye------->

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 6 Mar 2003 8:52 pm

I don't know when, but I do believe it was Buddy Emmons who came up with it. And it fills a big gap when playing fast single note runs. It is a long way (musically) from C to E and this D note fits that bill.

Further, the high G note was always been a bit thin to me. One small problem with it is if one tunes JI, it is difficult to decide on whether to tune it to the 4th string A or 5th string G.

I believe BE may have used this tuning on his famous "black album". But I am not positive.

carl

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 6 Mar 2003 11:34 pm

Buddy Charleton started doing it (with his students) in the fall of 78, as well as starting to block with his ring finger. I was told it was because BE was doing it.

It's a good thing Mr Emmons didn't jump off a cliff that year

I think they both started playing and endorsing Sierras at the same time too.

Any guess as to who got one first?

EJL

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 7 Mar 2003 1:55 am

Buddy still had the high 'G' back when he did the black album.

RR

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 7 Mar 2003 5:48 am

I have to agree with Carl (us old folks have to stick together!) I always thought the G was too thin also. Chalker's top string was
an E. (Jerry Byrd's also!) Raising the 3rd string C on the C6th to C# (relative to the E raising to F on your E9th tuning) gives you an A chord on 2,3&4, same voicing as the 1,2&3 if you're using the G on top. Works for me or it did anyway when my steel wasn't in the closet! (I don't think it will fit under my bed.....my new archtop won't either, so that's in another closet, but it's much easier to set up when I can't get a tune out of my head!)[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 07 March 2003 at 05:51 AM.]

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 7 Mar 2003 7:20 am

I was using the D note before the Black Album was recorded but had written a song called Kicks To Boot, which required the high G string for the melody. Rather than experiment with the D on the rest of the songs, I opted to use the high G on everything, as I was more comfortable with it. In retrospect I wish I hadn't, because I started using the D string full time after the album was released.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 7 Mar 2003 7:25 am

Buddy, "Are you sure?"

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 7 Mar 2003 7:40 am

I can't understand why you can't buy standard C6 strings with the D on top. All the C6 tab I have has a D on top.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 7 Mar 2003 8:05 am

So Buddy, the Black Album was a trick on us ?

There we were tuning to the G and there you were tuning to the D ( after the album of course )..and no Internet to set us straight...

It's b0b's fault for not inventing the internet sooner...

thanks
tp

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 07 March 2003 at 03:58 PM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 7 Mar 2003 8:20 am

Sorry about that, Buddy! I made the 'post' in light of the fact that you'd quoted 'Kicks to Boot' (using the high 'G') as a possible disincentive to making a book of 'tab' for the black album available - I therefore assumed the recording pre-dated your use of the 'D'.

That'll teach me to be a smart-a**!

I'd still like to see that 'tab' one day, though....

RR

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 7 Mar 2003 10:40 am

Although Buddy may not agree (

), one advantage of the U-12 (E9/B6) is that you can easily have BOTH, PLUS the equivalent of a high sixth on top (like the A above the G, if you use the G on top).

Just a thought.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 7 Mar 2003 11:58 am

When my lessons included a section that had previously required a "top G" "we" would go five frets up with the Maj79 pedal. On Kicks to boot, it was just close enough to be able to hit and still make the next chord. I've been getting this one "out" again. I remarked in the "tab" section that the Lead Line is indeed ultimate "economy of motion".

On "Almost to Tulsa" the open G on the head was merely replaced with the open D ( in my lesson). Also, it was not raised or lowered. Also at the position, of course, the 7th note is only a pedal away. I think in R the D on one of the last IV chord sections used this. At least I have from under my shade tree.

I'm still, after getting a copy of Mr C's "Kaylee" tape, trying to figure out all those flute licks..

Hmm...

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 7 Mar 2003 12:06 pm

I've had a similar demo by a D10 player showing me how you go up 3 frets and hold a lever in to play in the "G on Top" position.

As an S12U player, it just had me shaking my head, thinking, you have to hold a lever in to play in that position?... now what is it you don't like about S12U?... having to hold a lever in?

Oh Brother!

Gaylon Mathews · Post by **Gaylon Mathews** » 7 Mar 2003 12:16 pm

Glenn,

SIT has C6th strings with a D on top.

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Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 7 Mar 2003 1:20 pm

One of the reasons I still use the G on my D10 is the cool chord combinations I get when the 5th pedal raises the G to G# (which use to be standard). Pedals 4&5 and 5&6 etc. make great closely voiced jazz sounds on those high groups of 4 strings! (Ok I admit I like outside disonant sounding chords.

)
Did you lose some of those chords when you changed to the D note? I have a D12 also with D and G both (also the C to C# raise), but I havnt been able to find those voicings anywhere else. Lemme know what I'm doing wrong...thanks.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 7 Mar 2003 2:37 pm

Pete,
That lever is C to C# -- raising the tonic 1/2 step -- like the F lever on E9. Since the C6 tuning already has the 6th to get the A+F inversion you only need the equivalent of the F lever -- the C to C# change.

I'd never thought about using the Ma9 pedal for that purpose -- but I just tried it and sure enough it works.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 7 Mar 2003 3:48 pm

I have both on my 12 string C6th.

The Jagwire C6th string sets in the Forum catalog come with D .015 as the first string, but you can substitute G .012 at no charge if you want.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
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Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 7 Mar 2003 5:34 pm

Cobra Coil comes with any string you want on top, and any other substitute guages you want. We can also keep your guages on file and send you your custom sets anytime you reorder. You could put a .070 on top if you wished.
Cobra Coil, Major outlet:
www.steelguitar.net
sales@steelguitar.net

Wayne Carver · Post by **Wayne Carver** » 7 Mar 2003 9:32 pm

I am currently learning/playing on a 6 string C6 lap steel. I am in the process of making a 10 string console. I was thinking of tuning it C6 with the G on top. Is this probably best for a newby?

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 8 Mar 2003 1:01 am

When did the G 1st string become a D on C6?

I've heard it was 10h12 AM on October 24 in 1962.

I got this from the other forum.

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Peter den Hartogh-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa

Bob Smith · Post by **Bob Smith** » 8 Mar 2003 7:08 am

Well, I guess what made me ask these questions was the fact that my guitar was tuned with a G on top when i bought it.I also have a beginner C6 course by Mr. Jernigan who also tunes his guitar with a G on the first string( i guess its an older course) Anyway my main concern ,is that when i start putting time into learning that tuning, I dont want to learn something thats outdated or obscure and have to change it later. Seems like most guys want the D up there! bob

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 8 Mar 2003 7:14 am

I'm pretty sure Herby Wallace still uses the high G, and Doug Jernigan does too. Of course you could just get a D-11 or D-12 and have both strings up there.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
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Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 8 Mar 2003 8:57 am

Larry,
I've been raising both B's to C on the Boo-Wah pedal for a few years now.
It's makes the Boo-Wha much more useful in the swing stuff I like to play.
I too find it analogous to the A+F position.
It also opens up a nice A6 fatty on the first fret (approx. strings 10-4) with Boo-wha + P5 (which are next to each other on my axe). Let off the BW for the IV7,. ect...

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 8 Mar 2003 9:22 am

That's a great idea, Pete.
I assume you split the Bb lever to give you the 7#9 chord??????

Unfortunately, I can't do that because I already have three raises on the 5th string and Fessies don't readily accept a 4th raise or lower like you can do on some guitars. Did you give up one of the 'usual' B to C# on the 5th or did you use a tunable collar like an old ShoBud? (I assume this is on your Sierra, about whose mechanics I know next to nothing)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps