U 12s
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
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Pete Burak
- Posts: 6530
- Joined: 2 Oct 1998 12:01 am
- Location: Portland, OR USA
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Ron Randall
- Posts: 2179
- Joined: 13 Jan 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Dallas, Texas, USA
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Dennis Boyd
- Posts: 156
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Suisun City, CA USA
Gary,
Some basics in the pros and cons of using the U-12 tuning are:
Pros - A single tuning with all the B6th changes when the E-Eb lever is engaged.
Lighter weight and less strings to manage.
Cons - Not a complete E9th when compared to the Dbl.-10. With the missing D string an important filler note is eliminated when considering scale passages in the lower range of the tuning.
Probably the biggest advantage to playing both the E9th and C6th/B6th would be to have two complete steel guitars. One with an Extended E9TH-12string and the other a U-12.
Playing a Dbl.-Neck Pedal Steel is really a different animal when compared to the other tunings. The E9th and C6th are complete tunings in their own right for what they provide. The U-12 is really an advanced 6th tuning while the Ext.-E9th is an advanced 9th tuning. Only two complete instruments could provide all of each and add extra changes for both tunings. There are some sacrifices made when playing one or the other of the Dbl-neck 10-string or U-12 steel guitars. Some players use both to solve that problem, but that gets pretty expensive to maintain. Good luck.
I hope this helps out.
Dennis
Some basics in the pros and cons of using the U-12 tuning are:
Pros - A single tuning with all the B6th changes when the E-Eb lever is engaged.
Lighter weight and less strings to manage.
Cons - Not a complete E9th when compared to the Dbl.-10. With the missing D string an important filler note is eliminated when considering scale passages in the lower range of the tuning.
Probably the biggest advantage to playing both the E9th and C6th/B6th would be to have two complete steel guitars. One with an Extended E9TH-12string and the other a U-12.
Playing a Dbl.-Neck Pedal Steel is really a different animal when compared to the other tunings. The E9th and C6th are complete tunings in their own right for what they provide. The U-12 is really an advanced 6th tuning while the Ext.-E9th is an advanced 9th tuning. Only two complete instruments could provide all of each and add extra changes for both tunings. There are some sacrifices made when playing one or the other of the Dbl-neck 10-string or U-12 steel guitars. Some players use both to solve that problem, but that gets pretty expensive to maintain. Good luck.
I hope this helps out.
Dennis
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Jerry Hayes
- Posts: 7489
- Joined: 3 Mar 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Virginia Beach, Va.
Hey Gary,
I played the E9/B6 universal for over twenty years and was a very outspoken proponent (I think that's a word) of the tuning but I've changed a little in the last year or two. I didn't have the D string for a long time and worked around it OK but something was always missing. I tried both ways, lowering the 8th to D and raising the 9th B to D finally settling on the 8th lower to D. A while back I changed my tuning a little by dropping the low B and moving the low G# and E down to positions 11 and 12. I added a C# string in the 9th position. Since I've always tuned my 2nd string to C# I have my LKR pulling the 9th string and the 2nd string to D. This way I have the D string right in line where it belongs. This way, when I lower my E's I have a B6th which is just like a C6th with a D string in the 7th position instead of the "normal" C. The only thing I've lost is the BooWah thing which I only used on "Nitelife" but I haven't played that with a band in so many years I've lost count. I do have a lower on the 12th string E to C# which I can do that move if I need it but it's an octave higher. Since lead guitar is actually my main instrument I'm used to having the E as my lowest note in the tuning.
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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.
I played the E9/B6 universal for over twenty years and was a very outspoken proponent (I think that's a word) of the tuning but I've changed a little in the last year or two. I didn't have the D string for a long time and worked around it OK but something was always missing. I tried both ways, lowering the 8th to D and raising the 9th B to D finally settling on the 8th lower to D. A while back I changed my tuning a little by dropping the low B and moving the low G# and E down to positions 11 and 12. I added a C# string in the 9th position. Since I've always tuned my 2nd string to C# I have my LKR pulling the 9th string and the 2nd string to D. This way I have the D string right in line where it belongs. This way, when I lower my E's I have a B6th which is just like a C6th with a D string in the 7th position instead of the "normal" C. The only thing I've lost is the BooWah thing which I only used on "Nitelife" but I haven't played that with a band in so many years I've lost count. I do have a lower on the 12th string E to C# which I can do that move if I need it but it's an octave higher. Since lead guitar is actually my main instrument I'm used to having the E as my lowest note in the tuning.
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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.
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Larry Bell
- Posts: 5550
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Englewood, Florida
- Contact:
And I tried Jerry's tuning for almost a year and went back to the B on the bottom. The C# or D upsets the standard C6/B6 string grips and makes many 'strum chords' unusable. Since that was more important to me I changed back. Different strokes. The answer for Jerry or for me is not necessarily the answer for you. BUT -- I will guarantee you that you can make beautiful music with EITHER.
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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro
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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro
A bit of reading on this subject can be found at: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/001592.html http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/001722.html http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/002519.html
Paul's comments in the last post convinced me on D-10. Every time I see Joe Wright play (U12) I reconsider.
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<img align=left src="http://www.joeyace.com/img/joey2.jpg" >
-j0ey-
www.JoeyAce.com
Paul's comments in the last post convinced me on D-10. Every time I see Joe Wright play (U12) I reconsider.
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<img align=left src="http://www.joeyace.com/img/joey2.jpg" >
-j0ey-
www.JoeyAce.com
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Jerry Hayes
- Posts: 7489
- Joined: 3 Mar 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Virginia Beach, Va.
Just a little test. I haven't been able to post a copedent on the Forum because of my computer stupidity but Drew Howard sent me a way to do it so here goes:
<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>
< ^ > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 < >
F#
C# D# D
G# A
E F# F D#
B Bb C# C#
G# A A#
F# F# F
E F D#
C# D C
B Bb Bb
G# A
E C# F Eb
</pre></font>
I hope this works....Here goes!!
_____Wow, it worked. Larry, what chords are you talking about that can't be strummed? I do a little strumming myself and some Travis pickin' and the only thing that comes up a little dissonent is on the 6 chord out of the B6 side because of having a 2 of the Ab scale in line on string 10. The other combinations seem to work OK.
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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 06 March 2003 at 11:39 AM.]</p></FONT>
<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>
< ^ > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 < >
F#
C# D# D
G# A
E F# F D#
B Bb C# C#
G# A A#
F# F# F
E F D#
C# D C
B Bb Bb
G# A
E C# F Eb
</pre></font>
I hope this works....Here goes!!
_____Wow, it worked. Larry, what chords are you talking about that can't be strummed? I do a little strumming myself and some Travis pickin' and the only thing that comes up a little dissonent is on the 6 chord out of the B6 side because of having a 2 of the Ab scale in line on string 10. The other combinations seem to work OK.
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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 06 March 2003 at 11:39 AM.]</p></FONT>
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Daniel J. Cormier
- Posts: 4470
- Joined: 30 Jan 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Lake Charles, LA, USA
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Larry Bell
- Posts: 5550
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Englewood, Florida
- Contact:
Jerry,
The VI chord was the biggest offender and I use that position a lot. That, plus losing the bottom root in both the VI chord and open B6 position were other factors in my changing back. But the thing that really threw me for a loop was having to relearn all those low voiced C6 string grips that I'd drilled into my head for 25 years. I felt like a beginner when I tried to play instrumentals I've done for years and eventually concluded I'd punished myself enough and went back to something more familiar. I applaud your ability to adapt -- at our age that's rare.
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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
The VI chord was the biggest offender and I use that position a lot. That, plus losing the bottom root in both the VI chord and open B6 position were other factors in my changing back. But the thing that really threw me for a loop was having to relearn all those low voiced C6 string grips that I'd drilled into my head for 25 years. I felt like a beginner when I tried to play instrumentals I've done for years and eventually concluded I'd punished myself enough and went back to something more familiar. I applaud your ability to adapt -- at our age that's rare.
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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps