? about E -> F# raise on A pedal

Bill Sampler · Post by **Bill Sampler** » 2 Mar 2003 8:01 pm

O.K., here comes another newbie question...

I've noticed that several of the pro level players have a 4th string E -> F# raise on pedal A. Can someone give me an idea of what/how this change is used? Maybe a particular song this is used on?

Thanks to everyone for their help and comments.

------------------
Bill Sampler
Carter S-10/DB 4x5
Nashville 1000
POD Pro

Dennis Boyd · Post by **Dennis Boyd** » 3 Mar 2003 12:39 am

Bill,
That sounds more like what is considered the C pedal in standard E9th tuning. That would be pedal 3 on most steel guitars. But if the 4th E-F# and 5th B-C# change is on the 1st pedal, then that is called the "Day" tuning arrangement for the pedals on the E9th. Jimmy Day used that setup while Buddy Emmons snd others used A, B, C as 1, 2, 3.

Basically, that change converts the upper E Major chord (strings 3, 4, 5, 6) into a F# Minor chord. This pedal provides that change very quickly and precisely when moving from a major to minor chord.

Dennis

Dennis Boyd · Post by **Dennis Boyd** » 3 Mar 2003 12:44 am

Bill,
I forgot to mention that the E to F# minor chord change includes the B pedal (P2) which changes the G# strings to A. Sorry.

Dennis

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 3 Mar 2003 3:36 am

If you are talking about the typical 1 to 2minor change using both B and C pedals, three combinations of this are;

Ray Price Half a Man Turnaround with Buddy.
The Derailers (SP) Play Me the Waltz of the Angels
LeAnn Rimes These Arms of Mine (Turnaround)

All three can be found on Rebel and Ricky's Steel Guitar Tab site.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Mark T.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 3 Mar 2003 8:10 am

Ray Price "Half a Mind" turnaround using the C pedal? I don't know about BE's turnaround with RP (I never heard Ray sing this tune), but on ET's original, Buddy did not use the C pedal as it my tab shows right from the recording. He used the 1st string F# and the 2nd string lowerd to a D to get that 9th chord.

I have also seen him move two frets up with a 3 fret slant on strings 4, 5 and 6 using the A pedal to get that 9th. But I have never seen him use the C pedal.

But maybe he has at some time or another.

carl

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 3 Mar 2003 8:47 am

Carl
I do believe that when Buddy cut "Half A Mind" with Ernest Tubb, there were no chromatic (actually diatonic) strings, and that he used the three-fret slant you mentioned. That's the way I learned it, anyway, and it seems quite within the technique set for that period... late 50's.

This ninth chord could also be found on strings 3-4-5 with pedal 1, two frets back from home base. E.g., D9th found on fret 8 w/p.1 on strings 3-4-5.

However, unless Mark Tulbert got the title wrong, he could be referring to the Willie Nelson song "Half A Man." Now, I've got recordings of this song by Willie, and Johnny Bush also, but not by Price. So I can't help anyone there.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 3 Mar 2003 11:13 am

Herb,

You are correct. Most players do use a minor (two frets dow) to get that 9th chord. I opt for the 9th sound myself. And do it like BE does it now with the three fret slant and A pedal. If done by squeezing the pedal as the chord is picked, it gives it that haunting sound not possible if it is a minor chord instead.

Its all in what one likes..

Take care dear friend,

carl

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Mar 2003 3:52 pm

I have also seen him move two frets up with a 3 fret slant on strings 4, 5 and 6 using the A pedal to get that 9th.

Whoa! That's a pretty radical slant on a pedal steel!

Back to the topic: Bill, players who raise the E to F# on the first pedal are using the "Jimmy Day" arrangement, in which the pedals are labeled C B A instead of A B C. About 20% of E9th players do this. The other 80% use the more standard "Buddy Emmons" A B C pedal arrangement.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 3 Mar 2003 5:04 pm

Whoa! That's a pretty radical slant on a pedal steel!

Not really, b0b. The slant, as Buddy played it, has the A pedal down, but up on the 13th fret, it's a completely do-able manuever.

As I recall, ET cut the song in Ab, and the Eb7 passage goes like this:

<pre>
_____________________________________________
4_________________13----11____9______________
5__9__10__11__-___12##--11##__9##__11---6##__
6__9__10__11__-___11----11____9____11---6#___
7____________________________________________
8__________________________________11---6____
9__9__10__11__-______________________________</pre>

From the Eb chord on f.6, it resolves to Ab on strings 4-5-6 at f.4

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 03 March 2003 at 05:08 PM.]

Bill Sampler · Post by **Bill Sampler** » 3 Mar 2003 8:03 pm

Thanks to everyone for answering my question. So that is what a "Day" setup is!

------------------
Bill Sampler
Carter S-10/DB 4x5
Nashville 1000
POD Pro

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 3 Mar 2003 11:51 pm

Speaking of slants on E9, this would be a cool variation ending for the tab I posted above:

<pre>
Eb7 Ab
____________________________________________
4_________________13----11____9______________
5__9__10__11__-___12##--11##__9##__11--8--9__
6__9__10__11__-___11----11____9______________
7____________________________________________
8__________________________________11--9--8__
9__9__10__11__-______________________________
</pre>

I still haven't listened to the ET version yet tonight, but I think they're both close.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 03 March 2003 at 11:53 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 Mar 2003 2:57 am

Hi What are the benifits detractions of Day vs Emmons. I can set up anyway I want (almost) this week and need to decide very soon.
available on PSG now ;
D-10 8+6 LKL LKV LKR RKL2 RKL1 RKR
Thinking hard on the RKL2 added to C6 as 4th A to Ab.
I am open to suggestions on both necks.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Mar 2003 1:21 pm

I don't think that either one has a technical advantage. The main advantage of the Emmons arrangement (A B C) is that most people use it. You won't get as confused when you sit down at someone else's guitar.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 4 Mar 2003 3:06 pm

Ray Price cut "Half A Man", on his Step One album of greatest hits.

------------------
1985 Emmons push-pull, Nashville400, 65 re-issue Fender Twin, Fender Tele

Reggie Duncan · Post by **Reggie Duncan** » 4 Mar 2003 3:13 pm

I like the Day setup because my AB pedals are closer to me. Then, my knee levers moving left, lower, like my bar. My knee levers moving right, raise, like my bar. Lower to the left, raise to the right.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 Mar 2003 4:59 pm

Well confusion is a major aspect in this game.
Reggie Lower Left Raise right makes perfect sense to me. But I am not so sure of usage in the music. Like does B and LKR owrk as a good combination.
Because getting to E vs D issues ankles are a problem for me, long term sprained left. Out is cool AB to A , but in AB to B is not fun. But AB to B and LKR would be fine. But I haven't figured how I would use them.

Does anyone use a X minor7b5 lever. I am debating making RKL #2 as that. Up or down a fret and you have a good passing chord.If RKL #1 is a bit forward I can get to #2 fast. And I would likely use this alot.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 4 Mar 2003 5:23 pm

I wish to make a personal apology to the Mtulber of this thread. I can't believe I made the error I did. But I did. I read "half a man" as "half a mind". And my entire post was based on that blunder. Every word of my posts had me playing and tabbing in my mind was thinking "half a mind".

I sincerely apologize for confusing this thread.

carl

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 5 Mar 2003 10:58 am

Well, you were half right.