B Pedal Height

Lawrence Lupkin · Post by **Lawrence Lupkin** » 26 Feb 2003 5:40 am

Question from a beginner--how much lower should my B pedal be compared to the A pedal? I've only played one guitar and there is a substantial difference. Is this a hard adjustment to make? Also, I imagine I should be able to (gently) rest my foot on the B pedal without changing the pitch.
Thanks!

Reggie Duncan · Post by **Reggie Duncan** » 26 Feb 2003 6:11 am

I played a Legrande II the other day that I couldn't rest my foot on at all! I would lower it 1/2" below the A pedal. However, I play the Day floor arrangement, so your mileage may vary. Simple adjustment to make on my guitars.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 26 Feb 2003 6:23 am

There are several schools of thought, but this is what works best for me:

I prefer to keep all the pedals as close to the floor as possible. If you can slide your fingers under your pedal while it's engaged, that's as low as I'd adjust it due to carpet depths, etc. Start with the B pedal at that height. (how to adjust height is below . . . )

With the A and B pedals down, begin to rock off the A pedal. Can you comfortably go from A+B to just B by 'rolling your ankle'? If not, your A pedal is too high, meaning that the pedal rod is too short. There is usually a threaded attachment on the end of the pedal rod with a keeper or locknut. Loosen it and determine whether you can lengthen it enough. Hopefully so, otherwise you'll have to find a longer pedal rod.

I like to have the B pedal as low to the floor as possible; the A pedal as low as possible, such that I can rock completely off it comfortably; and (if the pedal steel gods are smiling) the midpoint, where your foot is parallel to the floor, is the 'half pedal'. The last one is not important for those who use the split tuning to get the C note, but push-pull players don't have that luxury. It's nice to know/feel the ankle and foot angle to get the half step raise.

Hope this helps.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Mark Herrick · Post by **Mark Herrick** » 26 Feb 2003 7:14 am

I am by no means an expert, but I have found it easier to "rock" from A+B to B than from A+B to A. And also more difficult to engage A only without also "semi" engaging B sometimes.

To me its a matter of getting B in a position lower than A where the engagement of A alone does not also result in the partial engagement of B. And the engagement of A+B at the same time is smooth; ie: pulling both strings simultaneously.

If that makes sense...[This message was edited by Mark Herrick on 26 February 2003 at 07:18 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 26 Feb 2003 7:51 am

Selected footwear is the #1 issue, before any adjustments are made. You'll find early on that the width, and depth of heels will affect how well a given entertainer can perform. The best test for a properly adjusted "B" pedal is to play the "A" pedal, and the "F" lever together. while checking to see if you are free and clear of the "B" pedal. This important change needs special attention, which involves keeping off the "B" pedal, unless you're opting for a pedals down augmented. A twist of the wrist is all that is needed to bring it into proper adjustment. I don't agree with going down to a mere fingers depth, but rather, I'd shoot for an inch or so.

Bill H.

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 26 Feb 2003 8:14 am

So many different opinions on everything with the pedal steel! One really has to decide what is best for themself after trying different recomendations. Due to physical size and joint flexibility means some things don't always work the same for everybody.
I play the Day setup with the 1st pedal 1/2"
higher than the 2nd pedal and the 2nd pedal 1/2" higher than the 3rd (A)pedal and the LKR
I raise my E's. Works great for me but not for everbody! Good Luck !

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 26 Feb 2003 10:25 am

I think it´s safe to say that this differs from guitar to guitar since pedals are often shaped differently. If I were you, I´d start with A&B pedals at the same height, then lower the B pedal gradually, constantly check with my foot until it feels right, comfortable to play, you know, and then tighten the nut.

Good luck, Joe H.[This message was edited by Joe Henry on 26 February 2003 at 10:27 AM.][This message was edited by Joe Henry on 26 February 2003 at 10:29 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 26 Feb 2003 10:36 am

Gotta go along with Mark on this one. It has always been difficult for me to roll left engaging the A pedal without partially activating the B pedal. So I lower B just enough to achieve this. Outside that all pedals are the same height.

carl

Lawrence Lupkin · Post by **Lawrence Lupkin** » 26 Feb 2003 11:37 am

Appreciate the input! I'll work on making the adjustments. I guess it is going to be a trial and error thing.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 26 Feb 2003 12:17 pm

Larry, forget inches - it's what works with your foot. Without shifting your foot right or left, roll off the B pedal, and while holding the A pedal down with the left side of your foot, hit your LKL "F" lever. By trial and error lower your B pedal one thread at a time until you comfortably clear it. Now reverse the procedure and roll off the A pedal and hold only the B pedal down with the right side of your foot. If you don't comfortably clear the A pedal, then you have to either lower the A pedal or raise the B pedal.

If you can't get this adjustment right by this kind of trial and error of the pedal rod threads, you have two more complicated choices. One, swap legs with someone more flexible. Two get involved with adjusting the pedal throw distance by moving the pull rods to different bell crank positions (see the Carter web site for identification of these parts). Attachment of the pull rod closer to the cross rod gives longer softer action, further from the cross rod gives shorter harder action (or maybe it's the other way around - you can see this is complicated). This type of adjustment can be tricky, because all the pulls on the same pedal have to work together, so they may all have to be moved on the bell crank. This can all get very tricky for a beginner, and it would be good if there is someone around who knows about this stuff. But sooner or later, you'll have to learn how to adjust your instrument for a custom feel you like.

With modern pedal steels it is unlikely that you can rest your foot on a single pedal without going out of tune. On some you can rest lightly on both the A and B pedals together. But be careful, this can cause out of tune playing.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 26 Feb 2003 3:26 pm

For all you guys [and gals],who have the "Pedal Steel Guitar" book by Winnie Winston & Bill Keith, you may not remember this, but on page 93 of the song 'Londonderry
Air II' the ending lick is rather quite an
acrobatic feat. I have standard A/B pedals
and LKL raises Es and LKR lowers Es.

Interpedal heights are pretty critical to pull this off. Even tho my A/B pedals are not much different in height, it took me a while to pull this off. I just learned to twist my ankle pretty well.

It goes like this: all on strings 4,5,6.
L=lower 1/2 step.

3-----4L-----3-----3-----3
3-----4A-----3A----3-----3
3-----4------3B----3B----3

It's a neat lick, and makes for an appropriate ending tag.

It's on fret 4 where it gets hairy [for me anyway]. My left knee is moving right,
while holding down A pedal, and trying to keep it off of B pedal.

My Williams U-12 keyless is pretty compact, so some of these tight moves aren't all that tricky anymore; compared to my old Sho-Bud
Pro III D-10. FWIW.

Chip
[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 26 February 2003 at 03:28 PM.]

Roger Edgington · Post by **Roger Edgington** » 26 Feb 2003 4:26 pm

I like to be able to play pedal A or B by itself without depressing the other pedal or a knee lever. So, I prefer short travel. Choice of foot wear is a big factor as a lot of movement can be done with the ankle.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 27 Feb 2003 7:39 am

Chip,
Very nice phrase from a very nice arrangement from a very nice book from MORE YEARS AGO THAN I WANT TO ADMIT.

That's one reason why I prefer to lower E's on my right knee. I believe that Paul Franklin (who lowers E's on the right as well) brought up a similar point on another recent thread.

Also, being a universal player, I'd LIKE to be able to combine everything with everything . . . but there ARE limits.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 28 Feb 2003 2:06 am

L.L.,

When you get cooking on your steel, try this change, using the "B" pedal, and the "E-F" lever. Assuming that your steel has the "E-F" change, press "B" pedal, and "F" lever together. Then find relative notes associated with train whistle sounds. 7 flat 5 is what creates the awesome sound. If your unable to pick 4 strings in simultaneity, strum 5,4,3,2, while rolling the bar to simulate the whistle. Advanced players hold a bag of "tricks" in their arsenal, to use while playing "Orange Blossom Special". They sometimes play it at breakneck tempos, and everyone's fingers are crossed when they get to the 3rd part of the old fiddle tune. The above change is not that well known, and I hope you will find it useful, down the road.
Bill H.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Feb 2003 3:54 am

Bill, cool change I will try it when I can.
How's the snow in Pitsfield?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Feb 2003 4:41 am

As I think about it short throw A B seems much better, to minimise ankle twisting and knee contortions. But wouldn't this cause higher
pedal preasures. and make 1/2 step detents harder to feel on full step set ups.?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Feb 2003 8:53 am

David, shorter throw is better for fast picking, longer is better for slow stuff, and does make the half-pedal thing easier. It's all a compromise. Manufacturers can't know what will work best for every player, so I can't imagine not experimenting a little with a new pedal steel to find the action and pedal heights you like best.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 28 Feb 2003 1:12 pm

David L. Donald,

This winter has been the worst in memory for ice, and snow. The sun is warmer, but the persistent cold, combined with record snowstorms, have been a real challenge to my patience. The ground has been covered with the white stuff for two months. There's another 5" on the way. I'm glad you like the pedal, and knee lever change, I had written about.

Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 01 March 2003 at 06:25 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Feb 2003 1:29 pm

Hi Bill Yep it has been a corker there. My sister near New Bedford e-mailed to say it was 32.. a heatwave. I was there middle january and it hit 5 below that week.
I plowed out the blizzard of '78 for weeks, so I know what you got. But Pittsfield always gets more, out yonder tharr. .
I knew a bluegrass singer named French, husband Bob a banjo picker. She could do the train whistle in her sinuses. Really wild and true sounding. She used to do it live in Orange Blossom Special and Wreck of the 97. So I heard your changes and thought of her.
The Smithsonian recorded her and doctors studied her to see how she did it.

Back to the lick and pedals. Looks like I got to get some cowboy boots at the wife's riding store. Good heels, a sharp but not too long toe.
So middling pedal travel to start. I guess it depends on the boots.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 01 March 2003 at 03:31 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 1 Mar 2003 2:38 am

David L.D.,

I'm sorry for not responding to your suggestions, that are in my opinion, very much on the mark, in terms of pedal travel, and minor adjustments. I would like to add to your true statements, that tempo is the remaining consideration, that enhances the temptation to shorten pedal travel. For a 3/4 time melody, a longer pedal travel would allow the player to express the melody profoundly, whereby a melody with quick beat duration would be encumbered by the same adjustment. The same rule applies in the course of making determinations to balance out the two variables of the A&B pedals. Keep in mind that the "B" pedal is pulling a 1/2 tone, while the "A" pedal is pulling full tones. It would be helpful to know the exact lbs. pressure required to actuate either pedal. I've successfully developed what I call short pedals,
which are mounted between the A&B pedals. The short pedals would be perfect for 1/2 "A" pedal augmentation, but at the present there is a greater need to lower the 5th, and 6th strings.

Bill H.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 1 Mar 2003 3:28 am

Hi Bill thanks for the input. I will having the steel set up by Tommy Cass this week, before it's shipped to me. I am sure I will make later changes though.
Has any one come up with a pedal travel adjustment that's fast? Seems an intersting mechanical problem. Some little mechanism you reach under and it quickly changes where the pedal rod attaches on the "actuator arm" (for lack of the correct name) Seems possible.
Maybe a piece that mounts on the normal attach holes, but with a locking slider along the axis of travel. Farther out long throw, closer short throw.
With a thumb button and a few set holes, it could be fast enough to be changed between songs. Well it's an idea anyway.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 1 Mar 2003 8:02 am

David L. D.,

All of your concepts warrant special attention. However, in this competitive world of great musical performances, small details seem not to affect individuals who could find a way to fly a lead balloon, or throw 600 lbs. over their heads. It is mind-boggling to attempt to duplicate such comparable feats with the steel guitar. The great masters can approach any steel guitar, in any condition, and after they tinker with it for a short while, are able to produce beautiful music.

Bill H.
[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 01 March 2003 at 10:40 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 1 Mar 2003 9:03 am

Bill I imagine that is definitly the case. The masters can take a piece of pipe and make a nice sound.
Still my take on this instrument is that most people try for as much flexability as they can comfortably get. With variations on that concept based on stylistic considerations and real world budgets.
I heard Paul Franklin and Brent Mason over the phone and thought... so how's he doing that? I look at his copedant and think... HOW's he doing that??
It appears the hottest players are all thinking of what can be done with this machines possibilities. I am trying to develope that same metality. Because make no mistake the PSG is a highly evolved machine, that also makes beautiful and varied music(s), because of it's flexability.
Bill do you know Mac Mackee from down your way?[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 01 March 2003 at 09:05 AM.]

Lawrence Lupkin · Post by **Lawrence Lupkin** » 1 Mar 2003 12:30 pm

The multi-talented Bob Hoffnar has solved the problem.

Thanks!

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 1 Mar 2003 2:18 pm

David L.D.,

I don't recall meeting M. Mackee. Thanks for the friendly exchanges. Good luck with your steel. Tom Cassella is very knowledgeable in making necessary changes.

Bill H.