C6th Players: your footwork

Sigi Meissner · Post by **Sigi Meissner** » 25 Feb 2003 8:25 am

Since I haven't played the C6th tuning a long time I'm still searching for the most efficient footwork. I'm curious how experienced C6th players use their feet.
Do you keep your left foot in principle waiting on pedal 6 and 7 like A and B on E9th or do you push every pedal separate? Do you use your right foot for pedals
8 or 9 or do you advise never to leave the volume pedal?

Greetings from Switzerland, Sigi
Shoe-bud LDG, Mullen D10 8&6

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 25 Feb 2003 8:34 am

Sigi
I generally use pedals 5 & 6 as my "home base," but switch at a moment's notice to pedals 6 & 7 or 4 & 5, depending on the licks I want to achieve. So I position my left foot to rock back and forth off those combinations. Either both down, or one or the other down, depending.

The combinations of 5-6 and 6-7 are the main ones analagous to peds 1-3 on E9.

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Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 25 Feb 2003 8:45 am

Herb's home bases are the key. Then if you need to push 5 and 7 use both feet. On occasion I also use the right foot for the 8th pedal.

Use whatever is easiest for you and your needs. I started using two feet when I got a volume pedal that was hooked to the guitar and wouldn't tip over.

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chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 25 Feb 2003 9:38 am

Me too, and I swapped pedals 4 and 7 since I use the 5/7 more than the 6/7.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 25 Feb 2003 10:00 am

Mega ditto's. 5 and 6 is the "A and B" pedals when working off C6. Albeit it there is NO comparison in the sound. Not supposed to be.

I do one more thing than what has been mentioned. And that is, I catch 7 and 8 together often. Since I play a lot of Jerry Byrd on this tuning, I emulate his B11th tuning with A being the root note. I love this full 6 note 11th chord beginning with string 8.

In addition while holding 7 and 8, I can lower the 3rd string a half a tone with RKL and now have the 3rd of the chord (splitting to C#) on the 3rd string as well as retain the 9th of the chord on string 4. This works great for me.

Also use 5 and 8 together as an A6th sound. Especially with raising the top C up to C# with a knee lever. As has been stated, I use both feet. Buddy does this all the time so I figger its ok

carl

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 25 Feb 2003 10:24 am

I use both feet a lot and it opens up a lot of possibilities and it can compensate for something that would normally be on a knee lever - especially on a universal. Case in point: On my U-12 setup I used to have a lever that lowered my 4th & 8th strings from E to D and I used it a lot in both E9 and B6 modes.When I got my Excel it didn't have that lever so I ordered 2 knee lever kits from Japan. By the time they arrived,I had gotten used to getting the 8th string D with pedal 6 using my right foot and now I can do it quite easily so I put something else on the new lever. I also use my right foot on P8 more than I used to because it's handier on my new guitar than on other guitars I've had.So different guitars and the way they're laid out plus their mechanical capabilities and limitations can make a difference and dictate pedal technique. -MJ-

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 25 Feb 2003 11:14 am

Same for me about the home base on 5 & 6; at first I had some problems finding the right pedal but I recently found out that lowering the 6th pedal (similar to the B pedal on E9) helps a lot. Like a "groove" between 5 and 7 that makes it much easier to feel where I am. I will sometimes use both feet on 5 and 7 and also think there´s nothing wrong with using my right foot for pedal 8. The distance to the volume pedal is so short that it seems almost logical to me and I don´t use the volume pedal a whole lot when playing C6.

Regards, Joe H.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 25 Feb 2003 12:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Do you use your right foot for pedals
8 or 9 or do you advise never to leave the volume pedal?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I strongly advise you to learn to use your left foot for all pedals. The original players used two feet mostly because there were things they wanted to play that weren't available in a modern copedent. In a modern copedent, with 2 or more knee levers and a D string on top, I don't think that you will have that much cause to use two feet. The order of learning should be as follows - get used to 5/6 (the base position), get used to 6/7, get used to 8, 7/8, and 4, and 4/5. All this should be juxtaposed with the knee levers and the various basic string grips. After you get comfortable with all this using only your left foot, if you feel there are things you want to do that require your right foot, then you can work the right foot in. It doesn't make sense to add a skill early on that you may have little need for. As a caveat, if your copedent has less than two knee levers and you have a G string on top (all very UNmodern), you will probably have to learn to use two feet.

I swapped pedals 4 and 7 since I use the 5/7 more than the 6/7.

Not meaning to tell you how to run your show there Chas, but the 6/7 combo is extremely vital and I would strongly recommend against any such advice to a newcomer. Playing around with the basic copedent is something for experienced players like yourself to do, but IMO, changing something this basic should not be done by a newcomer until they have sufficiently explored the possibilities of the standard copedent. FWIW, as a player of traditional jazz, I use the 6/7 more than the 5/6. And since many copedents have a D note on top, you can get the 5/7 by playing the 5 and picking the first string. Not identical dynamics (you can't sweep), but the note is there.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 25 Feb 2003 12:44 pm

the 6/7 combo is extremely vital

I agree completely. 6/7 is equal in importance to 5/6 in my playing style, which is traditional C6. To have them not be contiguous would be a major impediment.

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Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 25 Feb 2003 2:48 pm

I forgot to say, I use an old-fashioned 5+1 copedent with a G on top. That works fine for me because I play in a band that does very UNmodern music.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 25 Feb 2003 3:27 pm

I learned everything I know about C6 from Herb Steiner. (Thanks for the lesson, Herb.

) Pedals 5 & 6 are the home position.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 25 Feb 2003 3:36 pm

On my P4, or first C6 pedal, I have an A-Ab lower on my 4th string. Because of the forementioned 5&7 combinations, and my P4's use in conjunction with P6, I have resigned myself to the fact that I must learn to get back on and off the volume pedal in order to use two feet.
I'm resigned, but I'm not very good at it yet. It's coming.
-John
p.s. One thing I've decided is to remove my foot from the pedal during a note or a chord, so it's easier to discern any change in volume your foot may have caused.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 25 Feb 2003 4:24 pm

On my P4, or first C6 pedal, I have an A-Ab lower on my 4th string

I have resigned myself to the fact that I must learn to get back on and off the volume pedal in order to use two feet

John, I know it's none of my business, and you didn't ask, but I know you're a real jazz brain and a jazz pianist to boot. You already are sitting there with a lot of jazz vision. I assure you that an A to Ab on pedal 4 will be a pain to use. You're gonna have a bear of a time using it in conjuction with pedal 6, which is absolutely necessary. Why not sell your steel and get one with 4 or 5 knee levers? That A to Ab really belongs on a knee lever. You should not let yourself be handcuffed by a limited copedent, especially considering that you have a piano background and are into advanced concepts of harmony and so on. My best to you, as always. .. Jeff

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 25 Feb 2003 5:20 pm

That A to Ab really belongs on a knee lever

Exactly. Works with too many pedals... 5, 6, and 8... to be on the floor.

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 25 February 2003 at 05:59 PM.]

Jeff Evans · Post by **Jeff Evans** » 25 Feb 2003 5:32 pm

Okay, let's assume--for whatever inane, personal reasons--a guy has a 5 pedal/2 lever set-up available for C6. (Please...just try. I know it's easier to say, "Get a Carter with 9 &10...", but...)

So, what would be the recommended copedant? Assume the C to B lower is on one lever and the high A to Bb is on the other. Does exchanging at least one of the A to B raises on pedal four for an Ab lower make the most sense? If not, what then?

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 25 Feb 2003 5:59 pm

Jeff
Regarding the 5/2 scenario you describe, I'd keep the standard 5 pedals and the 2 levers you describe. I can certainly play almost everything I can without the A-Ab change, just in different positions, or I forego the change. But if I have it, it will be on a knee lever.

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John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 25 Feb 2003 9:42 pm

Not to throw a wrench into the works, but; my right foot never leaves my v/p. My 4th pedal change is on a LKV, just in case I need it! My 4th pedal only raises str#7 from C to C#. Then my pedal #7 raises strs #4 & #8 from A's to Bb's. And my standard #7 pedal change is located on a LKL. The rest of pedals 4 thru 8 are standard, including RKL. I am also raising str #5 from G to G# on RKR However, I have a #9 pedal, which raises str #6 from E to F. And then one more change, LKR raises str #6 from E to F and lowers str #1 from D to C. So you see, I have all the basic/standard changes plus a little more, with never a need to lift my right foot for any combinations with my style of playing! I am particularly fond of Byrd's C-Diatonic tuning, which is gotten with the use of P-9 and RKL at necessary intervals, and the B11 (P-8 & LKL = A11). I've been using this C6 Copedent for about 13yrs, and see no changes in the future! Just MHO. http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels [This message was edited by John Bechtel on 25 February 2003 at 10:08 PM.]

Jerry Gleason · Post by **Jerry Gleason** » 26 Feb 2003 12:03 am

I don't think it's a big problem playing with two feet on the pedals, since most C6 styles don't depend as heavily on volume pedal expression as E9 does. Still, when I was learning C6 with a standard setup, I noticed that I was doing a lot of dancing around on the pedals, and decided early on to modify my setup to more easily get the chord types I was using most for the jazz styles I was attracted to. This is what I came up with, and It's worked for me for quite a few years. I almost never have to use two feet. (Yes, I still use a G on top, and I like it that way)

</IMG>

If I had to stick with with the standard pedal setup, and didn't have 5 knee levers available for my C6, I would probably just get used to using two feet.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 26 Feb 2003 7:22 am

Jerry, do you tune the splits on the bottom two strings for your P4+P5 position?

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Jerry Gleason · Post by **Jerry Gleason** » 26 Feb 2003 9:58 am

Bobby, I don't use pedals 4 and 5 together, and I don't have any splits on my guitar. It's an idea worth exploring, though, now that you mention it.

Back when I was analyzing my playing style and modifying my pedals and levers to be more ergonomic, I moved the "Boo-wah" pedal over to pedal 4 simply because I was using it a lot, and very often in a chord progression like I-VI-II-V, where it's convenient to have those pedals close to each other. For example C6 (open), A7#9 (my pedal 4), D9 (pedal 5), and G9 (second fret, pedal 6).

Of course, I thought I was being very clever and original in making these changes, but after the forum came along, I realized that many other players had done the same thing, or some variations of it. Everything's a tradeoff. There are some shortcomings with this setup, but it gives me easiest access to the the things I use most frequently, for the style of music I play most often. It would be preferable, for example, for the A-Bb to be on a lever, but I most often use it with pedal 6, so it works on the 7th pedal.

I always advise new players to start with the "tried and true" standard pedals, and only make changes after considerable thought, analysis and experience.

Tunable splits... hmm......

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 26 Feb 2003 11:07 am

Interesting question b0bby. Coming from a P/P original, this was never a problem since raises overide lowers on this guitar. So when I engaged pedal 5 and 8 that bottom F# was great. I never used string 10 in this combo.

With all-pull systems, this is not possible so I avoided strings 9 and 10, Until I added the knee lever that raises 3 AND 7 to C# (RKR). Now I can have the same as a P/P using RKR and pedal 5.

To go from "boohwah" to pedal 5 quickly and effortlessly; and vice versa, a number of players in Ga have moved pedal 8 to LKL. Once a person has it there, they usually wonder why it wasn't always this way. It is simply wonderful, IMO. Mac Atcheson in Atlanta was the first to do it. Then a bunch of us followed suit.

If you lower the A's to Ab, we usually then do this with a 2nd LKL. The rest is standard with:

1. RKL lowering C to B

2. RKR raises 3 and 7 to C#*

3. LKL = pedal 8

4. LKL2 lowers 4 to Ab. (some lower 4 AND

5. LKR raise 4 to Bb. (some raise 4 AND

The above makes for a great C6 copedent IMO.

Try it if you are itchy to make C6 more versatile.

carl

* I go one step further with RKR:

I slighty lower string 5 so that the dominant 7th or dominant 9th (C to B engaged), sounds more in tune to my ears. For those of you that raise 3 and 7 to a C# and you do not tune ET, you might wish to give this a try. I find it great.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 26 Feb 2003 12:03 pm

With my set-up (explained above), when I raise strs. #3 & #4 w/LKL, I get the C# on the 3rd. str. w/RKL. Then, when I wish to just lower str. #3 from C to B, I use only the RKL w/split tuner. "Big John" http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels