Newbie how-to-tune question

Andrew Moore · Post by **Andrew Moore** » 12 Mar 2013 5:17 pm

I'm new at this.

Broke a string today just trying to tune up, wondering if it's possible that I was reaching for the right note but an octave higher than what I was supposed to use. Is this possible? Are all strings tuned around the standard within the same octave? Using 10-string steel with E9 tuning here, and "Cleartune" iPhone tuning app.

Tried to find a vid or recording of someone picking strings 1 through 10 so I can rough tune it by ear, followed by fine tune with the tuner, but despite the wealth of steel videos out there, just cannot find it.

Maybe someone could record a simple audio demo of picking strings 1 through 10, open, with a guitar in tune.

I'm probably making this too complicated.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 12 Mar 2013 5:48 pm

Maybe this is what you're looking for:

F# - 4
D# - 4
G# - 4
E - 4
B - 3
G# - 3
F# - 3
E - 3
D - 3
B - 2

I believe those are the correct octave numbers from the piano. I stand to be corrected however. The first 4 strings are above middle C.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 12 Mar 2013 6:05 pm

push down on the strings: They all have around 22# of tension at pitch. If you have the wrong octave it'll either be LOOSE or really TIGHT compared to the others.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 12 Mar 2013 7:09 pm

Best way for me to tell, is to match it to a string already on the guitar that is close to the same pitch and then finish tuning from there. If I break a string on a gig, I have to be able to hear me get the string up close to pitch before I can dial it in with the tuner. I have had instances where I was changing a string and tuning when the band was still playing, and even with a tuner, I would either be an octave low or it would break because I took it up too far.

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 13 Mar 2013 5:22 am

I've done that before, when I was learning to tune after my first few string changes on my E9th neck.
Then I learned how to harmonic the strings.

String 10 at the 5th fret against string 5 at the 12th fret.
String 6 at the 5th fret against string 3 at the 12th fret.
String 8 at the 5th fret against string 4 at the 12th fret.
String 9 falls tone wise right between strings 10 and 8.
String 7 falls tone wise right between strings 8 and 6.
One falls between 3 and 4, as in "Three Blind Mice".
Two falls between 4 and 5 pedals down and makes a minor sounding three note sequence.

That will get you close on any string break. Then use your tuner.

You will get past this quickly and it wont be a problem... ;^)

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Mar 2013 3:29 pm

Most strings will break long before you get an octave above their "standard pitch".

Andrew Moore · Post by **Andrew Moore** » 14 Mar 2013 11:29 am

Thanks all.

Got the new string, watched the how-to video and got it tuned up nicely.

Took about 15 minutes for the same string (3) to break again.

Happened when I was using the B. Since I haven't done much with the pedals yet (newbie, just exercises so far), I haven't properly tuned the pedal-down positions, as all those hex knobs on the end of the neck look frightening

- Am I right in thinking that maybe the B pedal is pulling string 3 too much, and that maybe I just need to tune?

Off to get a few more strings...

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 14 Mar 2013 11:39 am

...that could be something else entirely not related to tuning. Not knowing what kind of PSG you have or how old it is, could be a burr or something else....a little more info could be helpful.....

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 14 Mar 2013 11:41 am

Just a couple of quick questions.

1. What gauge are you using on the 3rd string?
2. What brand guitar

Definitely check the nylon tuner to make sure it is not raising the string too far. Check for burrs on the changer finger.

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 14 Mar 2013 11:57 am

I went through about six 0.011 one night when I first started playing. They were regular electric guitar strings. I won't name the string company, but I wrote to them complaining and they sent me two dozen replacements "pedal steel" strings and claimed they are quite different. It may be something to do with temper. Sure enough the breakage stopped.
Another breakage problem I had with 0.011 at the third string is if the string traverses the abrupt edge of the string hole when at final pitch. To alleviate this I now always wind enough string on the post that I get past the string hole point ensuring it departs from the radius of the solid part of the string post when at final pitch. If your strings are breaking at the tuning key post this might be the problem.
If it always breaks down at the changer finger then suspect a bur down there.
Guitars with a longer scale length (24.5) or a lengthy key head like PP emmons will require more tension to get to pitch. You might consider changing to an 0.010 for this situation.

Andrew Moore · Post by **Andrew Moore** » 14 Mar 2013 12:41 pm

Richard Sinkler wrote: 1. What gauge are you using on the 3rd string?
2. What brand guitar

Definitely check the nylon tuner to make sure it is not raising the string too far. Check for burrs on the changer finger.

The 3rd string is a 0.11 gauge on a Zum Stage One. I'll definitely check the nylon tuner when I replace the string again tonight.

Thanks

Andrew Moore · Post by **Andrew Moore** » 14 Mar 2013 12:44 pm

Jim Pitman wrote:...they sent me two dozen replacements "pedal steel" strings and claimed they are quite different. It may be something to do with temper. Sure enough the breakage stopped.
Another breakage problem I had with 0.011 at the third string is if the string traverses the abrupt edge of the string hole when at final pitch.

I'm using acoustic/electric plain steel strings, not pedal-steel specific. When I wound the string I made sure to use enough length to wind it clear of the hole, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Thanks

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 14 Mar 2013 12:51 pm

Using not "pedal steel" specific strings shouldn't be causing your problems. Many don't use "pedal steel" specific strings and have good success with them. The Stage One is new enough that I wouldn't think that burrs would be a problem.

Are the strings breaking at the changer? That is the most common place for them to break. And, do they break at the top of the finger, or back where the twist on the string is? If at the twist, look to make sure the end of the twist, where the string sticks out of the twist's end, and make sure that end is facing away from the finger. That's probably not your problem, but it never hurts to check.

The first thing I would do is back the nylon tuner out to where it does nothing when you press the pedal. Then adjust it until you get it to the A note. If it continues to break, then I don't know what the problem could be.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 14 Mar 2013 12:56 pm

once again, mysteries like this to a new player can generally be solved in a second by having an experienced player just look at your steel.

Jason Lynch · Post by **Jason Lynch** » 14 Mar 2013 1:11 pm

May I ask, where abouts is the string breaking? Nut end, or changer end? is it the same place every time?
if you're still not sure regarding pitch, I use an iphone app called Steel Guitar. useless to play on, but handy to tune to initially, till things settle down, then I use the trust Peterson Tuner to fie tune.
I would be inclined to check the roller nut to see if it's stuck or jammed, or the changer to see if there's a sharp edge or rough spot to blame.
Hope you get it sorted, Keep us updated?
Regards from the UK

Andrew Moore · Post by **Andrew Moore** » 14 Mar 2013 4:22 pm

In both cases, string broke a few inches away from the tuning mechanism on the end of the neck (opposite end from the pedal/nylon adjusters). Didn't break right on the post/hole, but several inches away.

I just installed the new string, tuned it (open) and will now tune the B pedal adjustment for that string.

The other thing I wonder is... does the nut at the linkage near the pedal have anything to do with the amount of pull, or does it simply dictate the position of the pedal? How should one adjust that nut, or does it really matter? It must matter if they put an adjuster nut there. See pic:

Andrew Moore · Post by **Andrew Moore** » 14 Mar 2013 4:27 pm

Richard - good to know that non "pedal steel" strings should not be an issue. I don't see any burrs, and breakage does not seem to be occurring at any contact points, but rather, several inches away from the post/hole on the main tuning knob. I do make sure to put the end of the twist is oriented away from the contact point, and again, the break seems to be happening at the opposite end of the neck.

I just reinstalled the string, and I'll now back out the nylon tuner as you suggested. I have a funny feeling that's the problem. I have not adjusted that since the guitar arrived (bad, bad...)

Thanks for the advice.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 14 Mar 2013 6:08 pm

Those adjustments at the pedal only adjust the pedal height, the distance to the floor. They have no effect on the pull train under the guitar.

So the strings are breaking at the other end of the guitar. Is it breaking at the roller nut, between the nut and the tuning key, or between the nut and the bridge? When you have a string off the guitar, can you freely roll the roller at the nut?

Andrew Moore · Post by **Andrew Moore** » 15 Mar 2013 8:06 am

Richard Sinkler wrote:Is it breaking at the roller nut, between the nut and the tuning key, or between the nut and the bridge? When you have a string off the guitar, can you freely roll the roller at the nut?

I just checked both broken strings. Each broke between the nut and the tuning key, looks like maybe a quarter to half an inch away from the tuning key. I neglected to make sure the roller was moving freely when I had the string off, but I will do that next time (or loosen up the string and check on it soon). So when I said it was "a few inches away from the tuning mechanism" that was not correct - it was in fact 1/4 to 1/2 inch or so.

Last night I tuned string 3 with B pedal down, at the hex nut, and so far no breaks, but I didn't give a real thorough workout. Will do it again this evening.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 15 Mar 2013 9:28 am

It's hard to imagine what might be causing it to break right at that point. I have seen strings break at the peg, but not away from it. Hopefully things will settle down for you.

Robert Daniels · Post by **Robert Daniels** » 15 Mar 2013 6:00 pm

My guess would be you are adding some "twist" somehow when you are winding for them to break at that point. I would try using a string winder and making sure when you start that the string lies completely flat before starting to crank up the tension.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 15 Mar 2013 6:27 pm

I suspect they get kinked as he unwinds them... That's not a typical failure point

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 15 Mar 2013 6:36 pm

I once got a run of bad strings, would break as soon as it was pedaled. Also heard a story told, that John Hughey once broke three in a row. I suspect he knew how to change a string.

Bob Hickish · Post by **Bob Hickish** » 15 Mar 2013 7:42 pm

what Dick said is one possibility , another is strings that have been stored in your pack seat or on the shelf at the music store for long period of time , they tend to corrode where the touch in the package or envelop . I know this sounds like a long shot to the situation in this post - maybe its the climate where we live , but i have had this happen with strings i bought and stored

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 22 Mar 2013 5:07 am

Oh dear. Here comes a third string breakage discussion

I personally find that adding a few wraps onto the tuning peg for that 3rd string helps (in addition to the usual amount of extra string.) Don't overlap on the post of the tuning machine, that weakens the string. Also, I happen to like 11 and a half gauge strings, but everyone has their own method.

An octave low is terrible string action, an octave high is hard to reach without breakage. All the same, I tune my guitar top to bottom, one string at a time... means I can really quickly crank the string close, and then get the last few half-steps tuned up with a tuner.

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