4th&8th string changes on E9-revisited

Steve Benzian · Post by **Steve Benzian** » 20 Feb 2003 4:11 pm

Is there any advantage to having the 4th & 8th string raises and lowers on different knees? The most popular has both on the left knee. It seems the second most popular has lowers on the right knee and raises on the left knee. I have guitars with both setups and so have learned both ways but would like to settle on one or the other. Of course, both levers are never engaged at the same time. Maybe it doesn't make much difference.
I'm getting a new guitar and have to specify how to set it up. I'm trying to decide which method to finally adopt.

I think this has been discussed before but I would like to revisit it.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Feb 2003 4:42 pm

Steve,

This has been discussed a number of times on this forum. And you are correct, the standard is LKL raises and LKR lowers. UNLESS the person uses the Jimmy Day setup; then they are reversed.

Here are the arguments as best I can recall them. Since you cannot use these knee levers at the same time, why not have them on the same knee?

OK, here is one "why" according to one school of thought. There are many times, when one is going from one to the other while sustaining a phrase. In this case it is desirable to have them on separate knees for a smoother transition.

I agree with this totally. And if it were not for the fact of another bigger problem, I would do precisely that. And that problem is it destroys a given combination (using various combinations of knee levers), in all cases.

Buddy put it best when he said, (paraphrasing), "Best to keep opposite changes on the same knee to allow the highest flexibility of combinations." I agree totally with him. And because this requirement supercedes the former argument for most, they opt to do it the way he does it. I do the same.

But in the final analysis, it is NOT what I or anyone else does. YOU are the one that should be satisfied. And that is the way our precious Lord made us.

Praise HIS holy name,

carl

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Feb 2003 4:51 pm

I have them on separate knees because I like the smooth whole-tone change you can get by releasing one while engaging the other. It's really handy of you play the A+F position a lot.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Feb 2003 7:30 pm

On some steels, having levers or pedals "work against each other" (that is, having both a raise and a lower on the same string, engaged at the same time), will cause premature wear in certain areas.

Few people realize this fact.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 21 Feb 2003 12:57 am

I play the "b&c" pedal combination alot and rolling off the "c" pedal(foot moving left) and trying to enguage the "E Lower" with Knee moving Right...is just not a smooth coordination for me....so I choose to have the "E" lowers on the Right knee for proper coordination between foot and knee(s)...along with other reasons.
Sure I can do it either way as I played with E lower and E raise on the same knee for years....but if I choose> it is separtating them for both knees.
Ricky

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 21 Feb 2003 4:01 am

My Super-Pro 8/6 came from the factory with the raises on LK and lowers on RK and I always thought that was standard....but who knows, standards evolve from popular usage. www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 21 February 2003 at 04:02 AM.]

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 21 Feb 2003 5:06 am

My first "real" guitar was a ShoBud I got in the 70's. What I mean by real is a guitar with knee levers already on it. I'd had a Fender 400 and a 1000 and a Blanton S-10 but none of those came with levers. The ShoBud came with the E lowers on RKL and the raises on LKL. I changed the lowers to LKR as that was the way I'd heard Buddy did it. I changed it a few months later when I decided to go the Universal route. Now I have the lowers on my RKR and the raises on the RKL and have had it that way for 25 years so that's probably the way it'll stay. It frees up my left foot to move anywhere on the 7 floor pedals with ease. If I'd went the D-10 route though, I might have stayed with the lowers on LKR.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 21 February 2003 at 05:09 AM.]

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 21 Feb 2003 5:38 am

I raise my E´s on LKL and lower them on RKL. I have tried lowering them on LKR, but I found it difficult to use the A-pedal while holding the E´s lowered with LKR (it makes a nice B6added9th chord that I use quite a lot in Western Swing tunes).

And that problem is it destroys a given combination (using various combinations of knee levers), in all cases.

Carl, forgive my ignorance, but which combinations precisely would having the E´s on different knees destroy?

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Remington D 10 8+7, Sierra Crown D 10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S 14 gearless 8+5, Peavey Session 400 LTD

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Feb 2003 5:58 am

My experience is similar Rainer's. As a universal player, I'm combining the Eb lever with all 6-8 pedals (depending on which guitar I'm playing). Much easier to do this with the right knee -- in my experience. BUT, I believe that this is more typical of two categories of player: (1) universal players because of the need to combine that lever with EVERYTHING and (2) (like Jerry and Gene, I suspect) players who started out on Sho-Buds or MSAs or other brands where the standard position for the E to D# lever is on the right knee. Emmons tended to use Buddy's setup and he's had it on the left knee for many years. Personally, I fall into BOTH categories, so I've had it on RKL for 30 years and don't see any advantage in changing it now, nor any major drawbacks, compared to putting it on the left knee.

What works for you is what's most comfortable, while giving you the flexibility to express yourself musically.

Rainer,
I can tell you that the one combo I miss the most is moving the second string from C# to D to D# with the E to D# lever engaged. Buddy Emmons uses that combination a lot and some of the old shuffle stuff that Buddy has published can be difficult to play the way he did it. There are workarounds, but that is the most significant drawback I can think of. BTW, I use the A pedal with the Eb lever -- as well as the B pedal -- often. There's so much hiding in the combinations of E9 and B6 changes.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 21 February 2003 at 06:08 AM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 21 Feb 2003 6:11 am

I've had both E changes on my right knee for over 30 years. It allows combining either change with any other change of the 4 lever cluster on my left knee. It would be very difficult to use a cluster on the right knee.

Reggie Duncan · Post by **Reggie Duncan** » 21 Feb 2003 6:23 am

I play the Day floor setup and lower my Es LKL and raise them LKR. On my right knee, my raises move to the right an my lowers move to the left, just like my bar.

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 21 Feb 2003 7:17 am

Larry,
on my first professional guitar, a 70´s Emmons pp S-10 w/6+5, the raises were on LKL and the lowers on RKL. Old habits are hard to overcome.

On my S-14U the Eb on RKL makes it easier to reach all the pedals with my left foot in B6.

I have split my second string lowers: D on RKR and C# on RKL, together with the E to Eb lowers. So I wouldn´t be able to do the C#-D-D# raise in combination with the Eb, anyway.

Could you tell me a song in which Buddy uses the change you described? I´d like to hear what I´m missing. Thanks.

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Remington D 10 8+7, Sierra Crown D 10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S 14 gearless 8+5, Peavey Session 400 LTD

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Feb 2003 7:22 am

Rainer,
I don't remember the specific tune(s), but I believe that they are among the 'Half Duz'n Shuffles' that Buddy published years ago. I believe Ernie sells that cassette/tab course on http://www.buddyemmons.com

As I recall, one example was in 'Invitation to the Blues'.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 21 Feb 2003 8:29 am

Rainer wrote,

"Carl, forgive my ignorance, but which combinations precisely would having the E´s on different knees destroy?"

Ok, there are several scenarios; but the two most important ones (in my case) are:

1. I use RKL (lowering the 6th string a whole tone) WITH both raising the E's AND lowering them. Especially while utilizing the "split" with the B pedal. You can go from a 9th chord to the dominant 7th at the same fret (one fret up from the V chord fret), doing this using the split and going from one knee to the other picking strings 4, 5 and 6 or 5, 6 and 8. I can't tell you how much I use this combination. And in this case there is NO need for a smooth transition since the interim chord serves as a passing chord.

2. I use RKR (lowering of 2 and 9 to C#) With both raising and lowering of the E's all the time.

IF I were to raise and lower the E's with different knees, the aove combinations would not be possible. And since I use these combinations often, it is just too much to sacrifice.

I am in total agreement with bobby about a smooth transition from one to the other requiring separate knees. So I had to choose the lessor of too evils. In my case I would rather sacrifice the ocassional smooth transition than to lose all the beautiful chords and phrasings possible by using the above combinations.

Let me digress here and also explain the word "standard" as used in my original post. 3 years ago, I called every manufacturer but one. I asked each the same question.

"Tell me what setup you ship MOST of the time"

All but Emmons returned my call and the results were (among other changes not pertinent to this thread):

"LKL raises the E's, LKR lowers the E's".

In addition, when I go to any convention and walk around to all the distributors and check the guitars they brought for display, in almost EVERY case LKL raises the E's and LKR lowers them.

From this, I could only deduce that it is "standard". I realize of course that a number of players do not do this. But we are not talking about the exception; but the norm.

Hope this helps,

May God richly bless you all,

carl
[This message was edited by C Dixon on 21 February 2003 at 08:33 AM.]

rhcarden · Post by **rhcarden** » 21 Feb 2003 9:16 am

I have both changes on the left knee. I have E to F# (4th string only) on the right knee and use it with both the E's to F's and E's to D#'s changes.

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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 21 Feb 2003 12:43 pm

Guess I´m the odd one here. I have tried about every configuration there is and have found I feel most comfortable with having both E string changes on the right knee, raise on RKL and lower on RKR. I like to have my left foot free to work the pedals. Now what´s really weird is the way I raise the E strings. I found that I just could not be without the single E to F# (independent from the C pedal) since it´s crucial in my playing. But I was also limited to 4 knee levers since any more would about push the old ShoBud to the limit (and I´d have to order them in the U.S. and all that...) So what I did was split the E strings` raise. On RKL I raise the 4th string a whole tone to F#. Since that lever also lowers the 3rd string on C6 a half step, there is like a half-stop feel that helps me get E to F when I need it. I know some would never do that, but for me it works perfectly, after some practice I can hit the "F" dead on. Now the 8th string E to F (which I use much less) is on LKL, as it is mostly, but that lever also does the 2nd string lower D# to D. Those two changes don´t get in the way of each other.
For those who want to know what LKR does - it raises both F#´s to G

The main reason for that split is that I want the 4th string whole tone raise on it´s own; I sometimes even play it together with the un-changed 8th string like Mooney sometimes did in the old days.
With four levers, this is like the perfect setup for me, and it´s also a lot of fun to play. It has a little touch of "vintage Charleton" plus all the changes I reallyneed. If I had one more, I´d probably make it a dedicated E to F# and then a regular 4th and 8th string E to F, but always on the right knee.

Regards, Joe H.

Steve Benzian · Post by **Steve Benzian** » 22 Feb 2003 7:12 am

I found having the both 4&8 on the right knee tended to interfere with the use of the volume pedal. You get used to it.[This message was edited by Steve Benzian on 22 February 2003 at 08:28 AM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 22 Feb 2003 1:14 pm

In addition to the smooth flow there is another larger reason for me to split those changes. Having the E raises and lowers on one leg would force me to put the other levers I use on one leg also. I use the other levers frequently together and find those levers to be just as important musically as the E changes. I would feel very restricted playing the types of music I enjoy and could not give that up for that copedant. Pedal copedants are always a trade off musically. Where to put what becomes a personal preference, not a necessity.

All the best players have created their musicianship around their copedant (for instance look at Lloyd). The pedal copedant of their choice becomes the perfect one for them. There are inherent problems with everyones pedal copedant when another player of similar talents sits down to their axe. The steel is at its best, harmonically limited, which is why my opinion is that the instrument will never become standardized.

The pedal steel is perhaps the most personable instrument. The desire to create a setup that works for all might inhibit what I love the most about the instrument and its players-Individualism!

Paul

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 22 Feb 2003 9:28 pm

...at the risk of kissin' up...ha....Gosh Paul; you really explain things so well, which makes you such a wonderful teacher my friend..
Now everybody go out and get all learning material you can from Paul Franklin....he is THAT good.
Ricky

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 24 Feb 2003 8:18 am

If you consider only 4 levers, the analysis is simple. There are theoretically 6 ways to combine 2 of 4 levers, but 2 can't be played. So you pick your 4 favorite combinations.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 24 Feb 2003 10:05 am

Paul made some very valid points.

I disagree with him about the standard though. Regardless of personal styles and desires, MOST PSG's are being shipped with the same copedent, according to my "manufacturer" telephone survey several years ago.

True, there will always be individual traits, but we are talking about a standard that most opt for. Further, if I had to single out a top reason as a negative to prospective newcomers to our instrument, I would have to give the "difference" in tunings as prime.

As one teacher I queried answered when I asked him if he taught steel guitar said,

"I will start teaching it when you guys figure out how to tune it". He did not mean intune/out of tune either.

His point to me was also very poignant.

carl

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 24 Feb 2003 2:26 pm

Words of wisdom from Mr. Franklin!