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Topic: Fellow Push-Pull and ZumSteel players... |
Mark Wayne
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2013 4:58 pm |
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I wanted to share the "Tone Journey" with fellow PP and Zum players who favor the PP tone to exist in their Zum. Keep in mind that this is all personal preference:
Upon playing my Emmons 76' PP for several years, I finally bought a used ZumSteel Hybrid from Al Andersen from Racine, who graciously sold me it (had to work all summer for the thing), but he still promised it to me. Al had True Tone pickups on the steel at the time, about 17k or so. Although Al really liked these pickups, they were a little bright for me. I then tried a BL 705, which Bobbe Seymour speaks highly of. Looking back, this was a very solid, good presence, yet warm pickup. At the North East Steel Guitar Show in Iowa I had the chance to converse with Bill and Tim Rudolph, owners of the Williams steel guitar. Bill, in his wisdom said, If you want a PP sound you must buy a PP! This is actually the underlying foundation of my whole post, but I still meandered on.
Tried a 20k single coil Emmons.....a little too cloudy.
Then I gave a call to Bobby Bowman, who worked with Buddy Emmons on his efforts with the Zumsteel. Several people said that Buddy used a 14k to 15k on his Zum. Hook Moore also shared some knowledge with me on that, as well as Paddy Long and Randy Beavers.......so....I tried the 15k pickup and realized the tonal expertise that Buddy has to accomplish that tone back in 2006 at the ISCG Convention using a 15k! I took the 15k pickup off and went down the middle and got a 18k. During this time I noticed my right hand blocking navigating from ring finger blocking to more of the ring fingerip blocking. After e-mailing several other players, most of the consenus was the single coiled Emmons or the BL pickups. The Emmons Company mentioned that John Hughey used 18-20k pickups in his playing, I always liked his tone.
The last resort was a left over Alumitone pickup that Al had. I never heard of them before, but thought I'd give it a whirl. They are now what I use in both necks along a Sarno Black Box, which seems to warm up the tone more.
In summary, the right hand will always be the most important source of tone for me, followed by a great sounding pickup (and all these I mentioned were worthy), and thanks to all who let me pester them to try to achieve the sound I seek.
Let me know your experiences.
_________________
Mark Wayne Krutke
****markwayne.biz**** |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 10 Mar 2013 7:46 am
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There are those that say their particular guitar plays better than a PP, has smoother action than a PP, is lighter than a PP, is easier to modify or change copedents than a PP, even looks better than a PP.
But nobody I've ever heard say their guitar sounds better than a PP. What's usually said is that their guitar sounds "almost like" a PP.
Bill Rudolph speaks the truth. If you want a PP sound, you have to own a PP. I've played them all and speak from personal experience.
Just MHO.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 10 Mar 2013 10:59 am
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i think people confuse 'sounding like a pp' with 'sounding like buddy emmons'. and that can be done only by practice, talent, imagination, soul, etc......on any number of different brands of steel.
get over it everyone!!!!
thank you. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 10 Mar 2013 11:01 am
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| let me add....i've heard more people sound 'bad' on a pp than 'good'. it's not the steel's fault. |
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Ben Lawson
From:
Brooksville Florida
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Posted 10 Mar 2013 11:04 am
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| I agree with what Herb said. I've had four P/P's and one MSA Classic all mid '70's. The MSA is a bit smoother and easier to change but it doesn't quite have the sound. On my current '76 P/P I had the pickups rewound by Harold Saunders and it sounds as good as ever. I also got some split cases from Kevin Hatton and it does help this old guy alot. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 10 Mar 2013 11:24 am
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i know...let's have a little demonstration of those of you who think you sound like buddy because of your push-pull emmons with just the right pickups.
post a link.
i know i wouldn't even try. i have settled for sounding as much like myself as i can.
maybe everyone should concentrate on offering their own unique twist on steel guitar...tone and music...
...like , say...buddy emmons did! |
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Robert Parent
From:
Gillette, WY
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Posted 10 Mar 2013 12:39 pm
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I played lots of guitars and then settled with a PP for about a decade. Sold the PP after moving to several Zum original designs and finally a hybrid. To each their own, but the hybrid is here to stay and I am not going back to a PP.
Robert |
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Ben Lawson
From:
Brooksville Florida
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Posted 10 Mar 2013 2:32 pm
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| Chris I don't think anyone was inferring that the P/P made them sound like Buddy. I have only owned the steels I mentioned in my previous post but I've played a lot of different makes. For the way I play (or try to) I like the P/P. When I worked at Church St. Station in the early '90's, Doug Stock would leave his Zum set up and let me use it. It sounded and played great but I got used to the way my Emmons worked as far as raises overriding lowers and no splitters. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 10 Mar 2013 4:32 pm
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i know ben. i like the pp feel too. it does kind of become an old friend perhaps more than a more generic all-pull. i have both and like them all...but the pp is very endearing.
just the fact that buddy's 60's and 70's tones are so beautiful i think leads many to the emmons brand...rightfully or wrongfully so. |
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Mark Wayne
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2013 6:12 pm
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This thread is merely my revelation of the pickups that I installed to try to reach more of a PP sound with the Zum. It's not intended for argument but rather for assisting others in their endeavors to reach their desired tone.
What are some of the pickups you Zum owners used to try to a achieve your best tone? What pickups seemed the warmest to you, and at what winding?
_________________
Mark Wayne Krutke
****markwayne.biz**** |
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John Lacey
From:
Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 11 Mar 2013 12:51 am
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| I own both a Zum Hybrid and a PP and there is some comparisons in tone to them, but the Hybrid is not a tone clone of the PP. Great guitar though, reliable and rock steady. I've got the TT pickups in it and with the exception of some hum, they're pretty good. Never tried a Hybrid with other PU's. I'd say that the Hybrid has more midrange than the Emmons, good or bad. |
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Hook Moore
From:
South Charleston,West Virginia
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 11 Mar 2013 3:19 am
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Mark,
My Zum U-12 has an Emmons single-coil wound to 18.5k. This pickup was installed by Tony Glassman, from whom I purchased the guitar. He normally plays Emmons (p/p and LG's both, I think), and I believe was trying to get closer to the tone he was use to. Perhaps he will chime in with how he felt about the results. I know, when I purchased it, he said he preferred the tone of this Zum to the other he was selling at the same time that had a Wallace TT at 20k.
I am quite sure the tone he got from the guitar was better than what I'm getting... but that is not a pick-up issue....
Doug
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Mike Sweeney
From:
Nashville,TN,USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2013 6:20 am
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Mark,
My '94 D-10 Zum has the original pickups that Bruce wound in it and they are wound to 17.5K ohms. I'm very happy and have no desire to change. I played Push pulls for almost 25 years and nothing sounds exactly like a push pull but a push pull and at that they don't all sound exactly the same.
I'll stick with Zums the rest of my playing/teaching career.
_________________
Zumsteel steel guitars, Telonics and Peavey amplifiers, GHS strings. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 11 Mar 2013 9:10 am
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| i swapped the pickups in one pp with my 82 zum. all my pickups (all single coil) are around 19k. the zum sounds great with the emmons pickups. the emmons sounds great with the zum pickups. i have a hard time telling them apart on recordings. |
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Danny Letz
From:
Old Glory,Texas, USA 79540
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Posted 11 Mar 2013 4:17 pm
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| If you read in Zums advertising, Bruce never claims that the Hybrid sounds just like a PP Emmons. He says it has some of the characteristics of the PP. If you want that, plus modern mechanicals and A number one workmanship, then you'll like it. Also, from what I've read, not all of the Push Pulls have "The" sound. |
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 12 Mar 2013 3:14 pm
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The only Push Pull that has "the sound" is the one Buddy Emmons owns ! 
I have the Telonics 84 pickup on the E9th neck of my Zum Hybrid, and also my 01 Zum and it is outstanding - and you can tweak it to anything you prefer.
C6th - I am about to install a new Telonics 409 (this is a new pickup from Dave) .. the Telonics 34 and the 206 are also very good on C6th.
_________________
14'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
08'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
94' Franklin Stereo D10 9+8
Telonics, Peterson, Steelers Choice, Benado, Lexicon, Red Dirt Cases. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 12 Mar 2013 5:01 pm
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| Danny Letz wrote: |
| If you read in Zums advertising, ... |
Does Bruce advertise? Like Paul Franklin Sr., I didn't think he HAD to!
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2013 5:11 pm
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| Let me add that I owned a push-pull and traded it for the Mullen I have now and don't intend to look back. The push-pull was a great guitar but the Mullen is lighter and the mechanics are newer and I just don't see me wanting to trade it away. To me the only push-pull that sounded like Buddy was Buddy's. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 12 Mar 2013 5:29 pm
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| Craig A Davidson wrote: |
| ...To me the only push-pull that sounded like Buddy was Buddy's. |
Totally true. But the question should be not how close to Buddy Emmons a player sounds. Those who covet that haven't found their own voice as a musician who has something of his own to say.
The Emmons Original guitar has a voice of its own. Many voices, actually, since each Emmons guitar is an individual, regardless of what it's made of and when it was made. Like people in a country with its own language and accent.
Many beautiful, powerful, subtle and enticing things can be said in that language by many intelligent people with something to say.
That's the language I choose to speak. Your mileage may vary.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2013 5:43 pm
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| Herb, I think you have nailed it there. Each guitar takes on the character of it's owner. They are great guitars but so are others on the market today. I changed because I wanted to move into something that changing copedants didn't involve a total rebuild of the guitar. I think push-pulls sound great in the right hands but I could never seem to achieve that sound. As far as Mark's post goes I have heard a couple hybrids and they do sound a lot like a push-pull. |
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Danny Letz
From:
Old Glory,Texas, USA 79540
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Posted 13 Mar 2013 11:08 am
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| You are probably right Herb. I think I probably read it on the Zum websight, but I know I read it in my Zum Hybrid owners manual. I also own a PushPull S10, so I'm not badmouthing them either. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 13 Mar 2013 2:57 pm
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Excellent ride, Herb  |
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James Marlowe
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2013 11:52 am
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Mark, I e-mailed you.
_________________
J.R. Marlowe
Life has many choices. Eternity has TWO. I choose Heaven.
Black '95 Zumsteel SD10, 4+5;Black Mullen RP SD10, 4+5
NRA Life member |
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Mark Wayne
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2013 6:59 am
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Good posts, guys.
I've been working with EQ and hand placement, too. It is a challenge at times when playing the Zum and then going back to the Emmons, because the Zum seems to warrant a bit different hand pressure than my PP.
I admit my guilt of attempting to make this Zum to sound like a PP, and yes, to even emulate the tone of Buddy, but not entirely. Like Tommy White said in that he takes from "The Greats", my personal preference is to get the tone of my heroes with eventually incorporating my own.
What have you guys experimented with regarding EQ? As a producer I know the importance of this, and its seems to be no exception to steel playing. Most of our amps have a mid shift. I seem to cut 600hz on the Zum, and about 800 on the PP. Of course your environment plays a part, too (and how you feel on certain day).
_________________
Mark Wayne Krutke
****markwayne.biz**** |
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