Sho-Bud LDG breaking 3rd string too much!

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 18 Feb 2003 5:28 pm

Help please, on this topic. I have an early eighties Sho-Bud LDG and have never seen a steel break the third string as much as this one does. I've tried 11 gauge, 10 gauge and all kinds of brands of strings, I also put a new change finger on that string and still breakin em.
I might get 4 days of continuous playing with the 11 gauge and maybe 6 days with the 10 gauge.
I used to have an early 70's LDG and I hardly ever broke strings on that guitar, 3rd string about every 4 or 5 weeks at 5 nights a week. If anyone has had a similar problem and knows how to fix it, man, I sure would appreciate the help on this matter, this is getting real expensive, not to mention frustrating.
Thanks A Bunch!

Gene

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!

[This message was edited by Gene H. Brown on 18 February 2003 at 05:31 PM.][This message was edited by Gene H. Brown on 18 February 2003 at 05:33 PM.]

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 18 Feb 2003 6:35 pm

Gene, could anything have caused you to be tuning sharp of 440? If you are playing in a band with others who use a electronic tuner than this is likely not the problem, but on any pedal steel the 3rd string is stretched to the maximum at standard pitch.
I don't think one guitar is that much more prone to break the string than another. It would help to know where the string is breaking. Is it consistantly at the tuning key or the changer roller or somewhere in between?
Jerry

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 18 Feb 2003 6:53 pm

Hi Jerry,
Thanks for your response. We tune to a standard 440 pitch, so I don't think that is the problem. As far as where the string is breaking, it is breaking at the changer end. I've never seen a steel break em like this one.
Thanks
Gene

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 18 Feb 2003 9:06 pm

Gene - I just noticed where you live. Were you living that far north when you owned the older LDG? Maybe strings just don't cope very well with those winter temps!

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 18 Feb 2003 9:11 pm

Funny reply Lee!!! Yes I was living here before when I had the other steel, we do have heat up here ya know.haha
I am originally from Nowata, Oklahoma and lived in Portland, Oregon fxor 20 years or so, but have been up here for 25 years now, nice people up here. Nice people on the forum too, always ready to help out when a fellow or lady needs help with steel guitars.
Thanks
Gene

Robert Henderson · Post by **Robert Henderson** » 18 Feb 2003 9:21 pm

Jerry, I understand the third string can be troublesome for all steel players because we really ask that string to do more than it should. It was recommended to me to try winding an extra 6" of string around the third string key to help keep the part of the string that will tend to move away from the hole in the key, which can act like a saw sometimes. Mine break at the changer just above the ring mount wrap where the string lays on the remaining changer curvature (GFI S10 4/3). I break about one a week and is the only string that has ever broke on me in almost a year. Hope someone can give us some help here. Good luck-

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 18 Feb 2003 9:40 pm

Gene, many of the string companies offer a reinforced .011. They seem to last a little longer for me. If you don't have access to any in your area I could send you a few to try and see if that helps.
Jerry

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 18 Feb 2003 9:49 pm

It sounds like you have tried all the normal stuff already. I would bring the guitar to a pro repair guy and see if there is something that you are not noticing.

If you really don't have much to do and can't get to sleep you can read these examples of forum wisdom:

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/002667.html

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/002875.html

Who knows, maybe a Lucky 7 would work after all.

Bob

Kenny Davis · Post by **Kenny Davis** » 18 Feb 2003 10:24 pm

Go to an .012 - That ought to do it. Use a .022W for your 6th.

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 18 Feb 2003 11:21 pm

Hi guys,
Thanks for the replies. I do use reinforced strings already , so I know thats no the problem.

Kenny, you said to go to a.012, wouldn't that be worse than going to a .010, I mean the .011's barely stay on for a couple of days, why would a .012 stay longer, since it's a heavier gauge, I 'm just asking? Thanks
Gene[This message was edited by Gene H. Brown on 18 February 2003 at 11:22 PM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 19 Feb 2003 2:55 am

Gene, that is an excessive amount of breakage for sure.

Do wrap about six inches around the tuning peg,and it it understood that you are using strings for Steel guitar.

Also please check your bridge saddle for a bur and check the roller to be sure it is actually rolling.More often than not it is a physical defect like a bur or stiff roller causing friction. It is common to clean the roller and polish the bridge with each string change.

good luck
tp

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 19 Feb 2003 4:05 am

Gene B.,

The highest point of stress is just an inch or so, from the top of the changer finger, and extending in the direction of the tuner keys. I can't think of anything in our world, that has caused so much inconvenience, as the .011 string that is brought to an (A) pitch on steel guitars. It has been said that "It goes with the business", or something or other refrainment.
Just as you would be wary of a person with a whip in his/hand, I became wary, and developed the "LUCKY 7." I've submitted pictures to be shown, but there has been a delay in posting. I'm not opting to crowd in by seeking a wide range of interest by others who are currently frustrated with breakages. I'm merely announcing that no 3rd strings have snapped in well over a year. Prior to the "LUCKY 7", I've taken my share of "whippings".

Gene, I wanted to stress a point before I sign off. The thought did enter my mind that by changing finger picks, (accept none, but the best), you may experience less breakage. Examine the picks carefully, to determine whether or not, there are existing right angle cutting edges, that resist a smooth passage over plain strings. The last concept that might very well bear influences, is the style of "attack" on the strings. If you pick with less force, and compensate by a volume increase, this also, may very well improve the string's life span.

Bill H.
[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 19 February 2003 at 04:10 AM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 19 Feb 2003 6:07 am

why would a .012 stay longer, since it's a heavier gauge

The theory is that the bigger diameter gives more metal so it will take longer to break. I tried a couple .012" strings but they broke quicker than an .011". It seems to depend on the individual guitar.

The highest point of stress is just an inch or so, from the top of the changer finger, and extending in the direction of the tuner keys.

Bill, I thought the most stress was at the top of the changer, right where the string touches. Can you explain your theory?

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 19 Feb 2003 7:01 am

Bill Hankey, I have a great idea. What if you sent Gene a Lucky 7 and let him field test it and give us all the results. You could possible prove your invention and help Gene at the same time.
Jerry

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 19 Feb 2003 7:32 am

Jim S.,

Yes, I believe I can. When I entered the post entitled, "A Bent String Is A Spent String", most of the stress relevancies were stressed in a gradual culmination by explanatory entries. At the end of the exchanges, by forum members we were still focusing on the terribly critical 90 degrees bend on most earlier models. The words that are most fitting are, "Undue LEVERAGE", found at the changer's apex. If you look at the string near the changer, when the (B) pedal is pressed, (wear glasses) there will be a subtle stretching that can be observed. This stretching occurs naturally, just as a tug-of-war rope is the tightest between a group of competitors. Noting that the "pull" is from one end only, accounts largely for the quandary that exists. I submitted a solution in a post, whereby my "GOLO" will take the notoriety out of the string breakages, just as the "LUCKY 7" has done for me. It would be based on a system that treats the 3rd string as you would any nuisance or refractory entity. Thwart the notion that a particular mechanical movement must be done in a special way. Jim, thank you for your colorful input. Good luck with your new Fessenden steel guitar.

Bill H.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 19 Feb 2003 7:35 am

Thanks Bill. My new Fessy has arrived

but I've been too busy at work to spend much time with it yet.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 19 Feb 2003 8:11 am

I also like the 12 gauge string for the 3rd.
I have better luck with breakage and also I like the fuller, richer tone. I don't think it being a LDG has anything to do with the breakage problem.
Erv[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 19 February 2003 at 08:12 AM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 19 Feb 2003 8:46 am

Never had any luck with 9s or 11s. Only 10s. Maybe something about the "molecular" stuff..

If they are breaking at the apex of the changer, maybe there's a "groove". Seems to me that I emeryed mine a couple times and I quit breaking them weekly. If they're breaking at the slot, maybe there's a rough edge there..

Kenny Davis · Post by **Kenny Davis** » 19 Feb 2003 9:20 am

Gene - The .012 works best for me on my Pro II. I've been using that size for years. Besides having a better tone for me, the larger string takes less movement to bring it up to proper pitch. Sounds crazy, but it works. Check with Ricky Davis, and he can give you more in-depth tech explanations than I can.

Jimmie Brown · Post by **Jimmie Brown** » 19 Feb 2003 9:27 am

Gene,I know what you are going through.I had the same problem on a sho~bud pro model i use to have.It seemed i was replacing one a week at best.I have no idea what the problem is,maybe Skip could tell you what to do.give him a try.you told me that you were happy with the sound of that guitar and i know that mine sounded great,wish i had it back for that reason.......later
Jimmie

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 19 Feb 2003 1:09 pm

Thanks for the replys fellows.
Well there are no burrs and no grooves and I am using reinforced .011's and I just put a new changer on about two weeks ago and frankly I just don't understand it. I've been playing forty years and never seen a steel break the .011's like this one. I mean, I do expect to break the 3rd's about every two weeks or so, but not every three or four days. I do love the sound of this axe though, to me, it can't be compared to to alloy necks, the wood is so much warmer. Anyway,fellows, you guys are a bunch of gret guys and I do appreciate all the help I have received, Thanks again

Gene

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 19 Feb 2003 1:54 pm

Have you tried a spritz of silcon lubricant
where the string meets the changer? Any extra friction caused by groove wear might be a partial cause. Just a educated mechanical guess. But it seem logical.

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 19 Feb 2003 2:20 pm

Just a curiosity, (forgive me, since I've never worked on a shobud), but is it possible, that the pedal stops for the b pedal are set too short, which would not allow you to have any slack, such that even when the pedal is not pressed, the finger is already starting in the pull position -- causing a sharper angle of bend on the string

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 19 Feb 2003 2:32 pm

Nope that's not the case either Gino, but thanks for the reply.
Gene

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 19 Feb 2003 3:00 pm

I've been using .012 guage strings for over ten years on both Emmons guitars, Legrandes and p/p's and now with a Sho-Bud. To me it's just a better string to work with all around. I've had some last longer than others but usually they'd break about every week or ten days if I played every day a full gig say four hours or more. There has been a few that lasted a lot longer for some reason. The thing just wears out from rubbing on the finger is all I can see just like any other metal part will wear down from rubbing. I've heard of the axle shaft that holds the fingers on getting grooves in it from so much playing. A good synthetic oil gives my engines more miles in the vans and trucks I drive and I drive over 100,000 miles a year. I've got one that I gave my son that has over 400,000 miles on it and it's still going so good oil means something. To me if it moves I want it oiled no matter what it is.