Issues with angle at end of dobro tone bar

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 2 Mar 2013 1:36 pm

Dobro bars seem to have one 90 degree side (some sharp and some rounded) and one more pointy side...and in fact some even let you order a 10 or 20 degree angle....

What are the issues around this? How do you choose between them? I assume it has something to do with pull-offs vs. slants? I see that the sharper break helps pull offs, but why pick one angle over another?

And why choose between end with the right angle vs. the pointy end? On the Shubb the right angle is rounded, but on others it is sharper...???

Thanks!

p.s. I finally gave up on my bullet bar (Broz-o-phonic) - fine for lap but not for dobro, and I've been using a Shubb SP-2, which has a rounded end and a somewhat, but not very, sharp end. I've ordered a Scheerhorn for the dobro and Shubb GS-1 for the Weissenborn (looser strings, the light weight should still be fine)

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 2 Mar 2013 2:24 pm

In the dobrocentric world the common wisdom is sharp angles on the end of the steel. The rest is subjective. Yes, the concept is the the 10/20 degree angled bars aid in pull offs and attack that contemporary stylists use.

Beyond that...It is whatever you are comfortable with.

fwiw, if you are looking fr a "high end" bar check out the options from Paul Beard:

"0000" - 0 deg offset
"1010" - 10 deg
"2020" - 20 deg
"2010" - 10 deg on one end 20 deg on other

Each of the models has it's fans.

h

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 2 Mar 2013 3:10 pm

Since I started playing dobro a few months ago I've been using a Stevens bar with a 90 degree end. I understand (but I'm not really sure) that Mike Aldridge used this type of bar his whole career, so it can't be a bad bar to use.

The 90 degree end is great for pull-offs, but sometimes when playing one string in the middle of the tuning (i.e., strings 2 thru 4) with the bar tipped on end, I accidentally let the tip of the bar (the vertical portion) touch the string above, causing sonic issues. I'm wondering if the 10 and 20 degree bars are intended to minimize this type of problem, as there should be greater space between the semi-vertical portion of the bar and the string above.

Is that one of the reasons for the 10 and 20 degree bars, or are other reasons more significant? I've never used such a bar.

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 2 Mar 2013 3:26 pm

Mike Auldridge used a Dunlop "Ergo" bar for the last 15 years or so. It is like a Stevens but heavier, larger and much better finished. They can be had for approx $25.

The 10/20 degree angled bars are actually LESS forgiving then the Stevens design. It's not uncommon for new bar users to get the angled end under an adjacent string. I think part of the reason is that the total bottom length of the steel is angled back leaving less of the top control surface. The bar handling technique has to be spot on.

Contemporary reso technique has become much more aggressive over the last 20 years. The angled end allows the player to really snap that string back during a pull off. Almost like snapping your fingers.

h

Ben Feher · Post by **Ben Feher** » 2 Mar 2013 4:16 pm

I'm much more concerned with the angle on the BACK of the bar than at the top. For me the angle has more to do with how far into my hand the bar ends up. Modern style tends to favor a bar position deeper into the hand than traditional styles.

Steven's style steels tend to stick further out from my hand. Tipton (sheerhorn/lap dog) style tends to settle further back into my hand. I find the lap dog more comfortable in my hand, but the stevens gives me slightly more control over the tip of the bar since my pointer finger is directly over the tip of the bar. I slightly prefer the bar position of the lap dog style, but can play with either.

I find the biggest difference in tone comes from the radius of the bottom of the bar. Stevens is more narrow which tends to be a slightly brighter and more percussive sound, where my lap dog is a larger radius and has a slightly mellower longer sustain. It depends on the style of music which I prefer.

I do seem to like a taller profile in general. The stevens tends to seem too short to me most of the time.

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 2 Mar 2013 7:12 pm

Hmmm....what what Paul says seems quite logical - having a cutout in the end of the bar would keep it from touching the next string when the bar is tilted, compared to a flat sided bar...but I also see that having it stick out would make it harder to know exactly where the end of the bar is....

This is great, thanks guys, even the opposing views all make sense once you figure out the different applications...

and from looking though all the threads on resonation, it seems that a lot of it has to do with the size of the top of the bar relative to hand size - it needs to match up to work well....the cutout would make a long bar feel shorter, which could be good or bad depending on hand size (I think it was the Tipton that people said was longer, and the long version of the Lap Dawg). My hand is pretty small...so the cutout is probably a good thing.

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 3 Mar 2013 7:09 am

Been using the 90 degree original Stevens bar since the early 70,s and really haven't had much trouble with getting hung up on adjacent strings.
My only complaint is they wear quickly. Mine are nickel plated brass.
Can you get a stainless steel?
Affect on tone?

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 3 Mar 2013 7:13 am

I just tell newbies that no matter what bar you start out with you'll try them all before it's over.
h

Ben Feher · Post by **Ben Feher** » 3 Mar 2013 7:29 am

Also, I'm not sure how much this relates. But in response to thinking about the pros and cons of various bars I ended up trying a whole bunch of my old bars. The result? Hand cramps. Never get them normally. Got them bad enough to have to stop. Moral of the story? Choose something. Stick with it, switching back and forth too much can be worse than sticking with something that seems just "acceptable".

Michael Kienhofer · Post by **Michael Kienhofer** » 3 Mar 2013 2:58 pm

Howard Parker wrote:I just tell newbies that no matter what bar you start out with you'll try them all before it's over.
h

Howard has that nailed!!

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 3 Mar 2013 6:59 pm

Michael Kienhofer wrote:
Howard Parker wrote:I just tell newbies that no matter what bar you start out with you'll try them all before it's over.
h
Howard has that nailed!!

--------------
That is the answer I was afraid i was going to get....

With lap steel I tried a Broz-o-phonic bar recommended by a guy I took some lessons from and lucked out, never needed to try anything else...and with pedal steel I happened to buy a BJS bar that Russ Blake happened to have for sale, and loved it....but for slide guitar I've tried everything before finding my true love, and I don't know what will happen with dobro, but I fear the worst...

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 4 Mar 2013 5:50 am

Deduced from Howard's post that the Dunlop ergo answers my concerns - it's stainless. Got one on order.
Mike Auldridge continues to influence me, God rest his soul.

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 4 Mar 2013 6:34 am

It's chrome plated brass. Very high quality and a great value.

Stainless bars tend to sell in the $80+ range.

h

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 4 Mar 2013 12:29 pm

Not according to the promo anyway Howard.
Dunlop ergo is stainless steel. Bought it via Amazon for ~$22.00. Tx for the tip.

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 4 Mar 2013 12:43 pm

Specs Here!

h

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 4 Mar 2013 12:52 pm

Oh great!
That conflicts with this:
http://www.amazon.com/Jim-Dunlop-925-To ... unlop+ergo

Check the specs in the middle of the page.

I wonder what I'll get now.

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 4 Mar 2013 1:04 pm

Don't worry,

You'll get a Dunlop 925 "Ergo" bar. A very nice bar that happens to be chrome plated brass. A huge improvement over the Stevens.

I used one for years until I made the leap to Paul Beard's 0000 steel.

h

p.s. fwiw there are a few places that really know the resonator guitar and accessories. I tend to shop at those places and not worry about the potential price differences.

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 13 Mar 2013 10:07 pm

OK...I got a Scheerhorn chrome bar (I just like my BJS chrome bar for pedal steel and thought I'd keep to chrome) and a Shubb GS-1. I really like the very sharp ends for pull offs - makes them very crisp, compared to the slightly rounded sharp end of my old Shubb SP-2....the Scheerhorn is much heavier than the GS-1...I get similar tone from both if I press down on the GS-1, but it seems easier to get a really crisp snap with the GS-1 compared to the Scheerhorn, which has a bit more mellow tone...

so...GS-1 when i need to go fast, Scheerhorn for feeling...SP-2 in the drawer as a spare to use only if I lose the others. I do like the feel of the wood handle on the GS-1...and the Scheerhorn has a very solid feel.

p.s. I did just realize that, unlike pedal steel (where the bar rolls over the full circumference), on dobro the exact same place on the bar is always in contact with the string, which may mean that the chrome will wear off (which doesn't happen on the BJS). We'll see....