How many are deleting the low C string on C6?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 8 Feb 2003 3:49 pm

To answer Bill's original question, Dan Tyack is the only "big name" player I know of who has actually removed his 10th string to add another string in the middle of his C6th neck. ("Big name" meaning with major recording and touring credits to his name.) Bob Hoffnar has also done it, but he's a relative newcomer to the steel world.

Doug Livingston (another "big name") uses the middle D, but it's on a 12 string - he still has a low C.

Buddy Emmons (the biggest "big name") still performs with a low C string. Many players use non-standard knee levers to fill the midrange "gap" in the standard tuning, while many others don't see it as a problem at all.

I don't think that there's much of a trend to remove the low C string from the tuning. Most people use the C6 for western swing, traditional jazz and bop. There are some very well-established chord positions in those musical forms that require the low C string.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

John Hawkins · Post by **John Hawkins** » 8 Feb 2003 4:58 pm

I don't know how to do a repeat of a "QUOTE" like I see on the forum but what b0b says in the last paragraph of his post is what I will agree with . I still have the basic 8th pedal lowering the tenth on C 6th and will always .

We play "Night Life" a lot and I cannot do it the way I like without lowering that tenth ! You folks know what spot in that song I'm talking about ! I also use it in many other ways as well !

John

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 8 Feb 2003 5:42 pm

b0b,
With all due respect to Dan T., I was under the impression (perhaps incorrect) that it would be big name C6 players, like Emmons, Curly Chalker, Buddy Charleton, Jernigan, Tommy White, Gary Carpenter, Jim Loessberg, Terry Crisp, etc. that the poster wanted to know about, that is well-known C6 players. I'm beating this into the ground, which is par for the course for me, but when it comes to the C6 subject, as you well know, I just don't let up when I feel the subject has not been addressed accurately. If the poster is interested in any player that has recorded steel, or played with a known artist, then he should correct me on this. Otherwise, my assumption is that he wants players known for their C6 playing, not just steel players who do some C6.

Bob Simmons · Post by **Bob Simmons** » 8 Feb 2003 7:45 pm

Boy, you guys opened up a can of worms. I lower my middle Eto D on a knee, and would be totaly lost without lowering the bottom C to A. I like blues and play a lot out of the A7th chord, I keep my base pedal #4, next to the D pedal and alternate back and forth. Also move the A's to B pedal to a lkl(c6) and use it a lot together with D pedal. Works great for old and the rock tunes also.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 9 Feb 2003 7:58 am

BTW, it doesn't necessarily have to be famous icons. I would also include players like Jim Cohen, who is an accomplished, well-known C6 performer, on such a list of candidates whose copedents are worth discussing.

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 9 Feb 2003 9:38 pm

Several years ago I dropped the C for an A on the 10th string. Years later I changed again to make the 10th string a D note. I still use that same idea though I now play Bb sixth instead of C sixth. The C just always got in the way, any time I played the 10th string it was either raised to D or lowered to A. I plan to get a S12 sometime this year and it will be tuned as follows.
1)G
2)F
3)D
4)Bb
5)G
6)F
7)D
8)Bb
9)G
10)Eb
11)C
12)G
The 11 string version of this is what is on my triple neck, it is absent of the low G. The 10 string version that will be on my D10 MSA will drop the high and low G, strings 1 & 12.
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The Steel Dr.
Johnny Cox P.S.D.
MSA Customer Service
www.msapedalsteels.com
www.thetimejumpers.com

[This message was edited by Johnny Cox on 09 February 2003 at 09:43 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 10 Feb 2003 7:31 am

Johnny,
Could you describe some of the concepts behind the use of the D string and A string? Thanks in advance. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 10 February 2003 at 07:35 AM.]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 10 Feb 2003 12:18 pm

This thread has become a little over heated -- perhaps the UN should send inspectors out to search for CMD (Copedants of Mass Destruction).

Seriously, I love seeing alternative approaches to the C6th neck, but I haven't read one thing yet here that explains what the advantage of inserting the D is. If anybody could explain that for me, I would greatly appreciate it.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 10 Feb 2003 1:26 pm

Stephen,
You could ask Mike Cass, Susan Alcorn or Buddy Emmons who all use the middle D tuning and personally explained the advantages and disadvantages that they found with it to me.
On a basic level you give up the low bass note of the chord and the classic C6 sweeps. You do get more voicing options in your middle range. It also makes modal scale playing a little easyer.

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 10 February 2003 at 01:49 PM.]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 10 Feb 2003 3:17 pm

Thanks for the reply, Bob. I know that you've been using the inserted "D" for quite awhile and like it a lot. I guess I could call Mike or a bunch of other people, but I just thought it would be useful to have it posted here. I really don't like to bother people with copedant questions -- it's just a little less interesting than talking about dental hygiene. So, I thought somebody might like to post an explanation here. Hope all is well with you.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 10 Feb 2003 3:37 pm

I've run chord voicing options in my head before, and run into the absence of a D note in the middle.
Jeff, try this: Tune your 7th string C up to D, and arpeggiate this voicing for a C major chord:
<pre>
1-----------------
2------------7(6~-
3----------7~~~~~-
4-----------------
5--------7~~~~~~--
6-----------------
7------7~~~~~~~---<--tuned to D
8----7~~~~~~~~~---
9--7~~~~~~~~~~~---
10----------------
</pre>
Except the interval between the root and the third on the 8th string, it's a stack of perfect fourths. You don't have to use all of them either. There are many versions and subtle alterations which are used to voice other sorts of chords.
Bob Hoffnar, I've always called these "fourth chords", but I've heard you refer to "quartal voicings" in here before. Same thing ?
I could certainly see it's usefullness.
-John

James Winwood · Post by **James Winwood** » 10 Feb 2003 3:48 pm

I love how this same topic constantly pops up on the forum every month or so it seems. Another "middle D" in disguise? Open mindedness is evolution. If anyone is interested I have dropped my low C. I raise the F up to G with a pedal with my right foot. As with all tuning stuff, there are trade-offs for both views.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 10 Feb 2003 3:59 pm

Hey John....I raise the 7th string on one of my steels from C to D with a pedal, and it's a great change for those cool stacked 4th chords that I love so much! IMO, thats more of the way that I personally would rather go. (vs a dedicated D string in the middle)

Everyone keeps talking about missing the low C to A7#9 "Nightlife Boo Wah" chord too much, but to me, it's the 5th pedal raise from low C up to D that would be alot harder to live without.

I think the biggest advantage of the dedicated middle D would be for sightreading without too much bar movement. At least thats where I find myself looking down at the neck from the sheetmusic the most.

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 10 Feb 2003 4:05 pm

I'll try to answer though I can't get very technical. When I had the C on bottom of C6th I always seemed to either have it raised to D or lowered to A. ith it tuned to D you can easily play a 4 over 5 cord. With it at A minor seventh chords have the root on bottom. At one point I had a pedal that lowered the F to D and the C to A, I seemed to always have it pressed so I just started tuning that way.

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The Steel Dr.
Johnny Cox P.S.D.
MSA Customer Service
www.msapedalsteels.com
www.thetimejumpers.com

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 10 Feb 2003 4:12 pm

John,
It looks like 4th chords and quartal harmony are about the same thing.
One thing I bump into these days when I play with jazz guys coming up out of The New School and Berkeley is that the writing and playing is often based around slash chords (quartal harmony can be written as slash chords) . The standard swing/bop chords and extentions don't really apply to the composition and improv. The music is often in 2 keys at the same time and doesn't move around in the standard dominant to tonic way. Its sorta like the difference between Brahms and Debussey.

I really don't know if the D string bit is any better for anything. In my case it makes it more simple for me to get at the notes that I want to play.

Bob

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 10 Feb 2003 4:32 pm

Ok, For guys like me, unfamiliar with this tuning, what pedals stay the same and which ones do you have to change? It sounds interesting.

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1985 Emmons push-pull, Session 500, Nashville400, 65 re-issue Fender Twin, Fender Tele

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Feb 2003 5:06 pm

Everyone keeps talking about missing the low C to A7#9 "Nightlife Boo Wah" chord too much, but to me, it's the 5th pedal raise from low C up to D that would be alot harder to live without.

I couldn't agree more. That's why I recently changed my 5th pedal to lower F down to D, instead of raising F to F#. The root is more important to me than the third in the low octave.

"Night Life" may be a popular tune in Texas, but I can count on two fingers the number of times I've heard it called on a bandstand here in North California. The song, and the boo-wah effect, just aren't required in the bands I've played in over the years.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 10 Feb 2003 6:32 pm

Bobby....on my D12(with the usual low C AND traditional pedal 5 in place) I also have a pedal that lowers the F to a D, which is great for minors and "slash" chords! (esp. in conjuntion with a KL that raises both E's to F) It's the coolest pedal combo on that neck IMO!

But don't you lose the full voiced F# half- diminished by getting rid of the F to F# raise? That would be really hard to live without for me. Almost every Real Book type jazz standard cries out for that change somewhere.

I can also dig what Johnny C. is doing with his low strings, but I kinda like the movement of lowering the F to the D. [This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 10 February 2003 at 06:40 PM.][This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 10 February 2003 at 06:42 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 10 Feb 2003 10:19 pm

.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 10 February 2003 at 10:57 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 Feb 2003 7:50 am

I'm sure you're right, Rick. Since I don't play jazz, I don't have much call for a full voiced half diminished. Looking at it from the jazz side, I've really messed up the tuning.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 11 Feb 2003 8:02 am

Bob, if those guys coming out of the New School and Berkley are playing slash chords, maybe it's because polytonality has been a fundamental concept in jazz since the mid 1950's. Polytonality is just a different way of looking at chord extensions, focusing on the upper triad as the main chord (or a seprate chord) rather than an extension of another chord. But polytonality "lives and breaths" in the same world of tension and resolution that all jazz does, and so fits right into the standard II-V-I framework that underlies all jazz. (IMHO)

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 11 Feb 2003 8:41 am

While the 8th pedal is sometimes used as a "boowah" pedal like in "Nightlife", it is used MOST of the time to get a very needed 7th chord with the 7th (withOUT the 9th) of the chord near the top; and the root on the bottom. Jerry Byrd's "Cocoanut Grove" kickoff is a prime case in point.

IE, two frets down from a C chord at the 12th fret; is a G7 with that big powerful root G note on the 10th sring. Forget about the boowah sound. Just that big G note (A note-open strings) is just too great for me to do without.

Also, 3 frets up from the tonic (I chord) is that chord's 7th with the Big C (or is it the big "E"

) on the bottom.

If you try this at the tonic fret (raising the A's to Bb, you have that pesky F (9th string) in the way. If you slide down 2 frets and engage the D pedal those 9ths can be a hindrance. Thus the sound is totally different. True the 9th HAS its place also. Best to have BOTH.

The "boowah" part is minimal in needs. But the note is major in my book. Also when a PSG is called upon to do "tick" guitar, rhythm or bass sounds, there is NO subsitute for the 8th pedal.

If you ever take lessons from a player like Buddy Charleton, he will hold his 8th pedal down and do a walking bass line (while you are playing) that will make one ask, "where IS that bass player?"

Simply awesome. Mac Atcheson in Atlanta will do the same thing. And not once will they use the boowah sound. But that 10th string is doin 'mosta the walkin'

"These boots were made for walking, and that's just what they'll do. One a these days, these boots are gonna walk all over you......boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom......."

8th string personified

Yeah, Yeah I know, you can get it on other strings. But HOSS, it jes don' sound right!

The dissonant sounds of a C# and a C (maj/minor 7th's) PLUS that big root on the bottom (NOT boohwah-just the note) is used much in music other than western swing; that further tells me I simply do not want to be without it. Putting a pesky D note in the middle of the string just messes it up completely for some of us. And it would not suprise me to find that is the case for most C6 players.

But whatever floats........

carl

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 Feb 2003 10:50 am

A lot of bass players are using 5 strings now. I wonder if they're doing it to get below the pedal steel.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 11 Feb 2003 3:21 pm

Stephen,
I think you are right about the fundamentals of jazz underlying all the polytonal stuff. It’s why rock guys sound can sometimes sound so one-dimensional when they try to play free compared to the jazz guys. It’s also why I spend all my practice time on standard swing, jazz blues and rhythm changes these days.

One thing I would like to make clear is that I don't advocate any tuning or set up over any other. I have what is currently working for me and that is just about it.
If anybody wants to try out the middle D thing I would just retune and play the guitar without pedals to see if you like it or not.

Bob

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 11 Feb 2003 5:15 pm

Well said, Bob. In the end, it's the sound you make that counts. Theory and copedant are just ways to get there. Like the Buddha said, "Many Paths, One Truth."