How many are deleting the low C string on C6?

Nick Anderson · Post by **Nick Anderson** » 5 Feb 2003 11:06 pm

Just interested to see if this is a thing that a lot of people are going to or if it is just a few.

Any big name players doing this?

Thanks,
Nick Anderson

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 6 Feb 2003 12:53 am

Curly Chalker once told me that regardless of whatever his pedal set-up was, he would still tune his C6 in this fashion, from the bottom: A-D-F-A-C-E-G-A-C-E. Unless he has changed lately, Stu Basore tunes this way, however; I don't know of anyone else who does! "Big John" http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 6 Feb 2003 6:19 am

Many years ago, when I was playing full time, heavy into studying everyone's setup, and also heavy into Curly's playing (although I still can't touch any of it), I set up my D-12 with his C6 tuning. I had the above setup on the bottom strings and put a D and G on top.

To me, it was very good for playing the P8 and P5 stuff, as the pedals were easier to push. However I did miss the slurs of the Boo-wah pedal

.

Then I saw Buddy Emmons in concert, was totally floored by his magnificent playing and effortless use of the C6 pedals (when he used them), and switched back to the standard setup.

I recently tried the middle D (C# on B6) concept on both a 12 (without the low B) and 13 string (with the low B) Universal, but missed the chord strums and "standard" licks that I have played for 30+ years, so I went back to my D-12.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden D-12 (coming soon)=-
Stereo Steel rig w/Boss GX-700
IVL SteelRider w/JV-880

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 6 Feb 2003 6:46 am

I've read somewhere that Terry Crisp among others had dropped the low C and added the D note in his tuning. I don't play a C6th but I do use a type of Universal which is the same thing as what you're talking about. I don't have the low B string and have a C# tuned between my 8th string E and my 10th string B. I don't think I'd ever go back to the regular U-12 again and if I ever had a C6 I'd probably use this set up (low to high) F A C D E G A C E D.......

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 6 Feb 2003 7:55 am

Yes, BE and a few others are, or have tried dropping the low C and adding a D note between the middle C and E notes. But I believe the standard by FAR is what it has been for years.

I really don't see this becoming standard for a very long time, if ever. It simply messes up too many things that most don't want to give up.

carl

Jay Jessup · Post by **Jay Jessup** » 6 Feb 2003 8:10 am

What I have done on one of my steels is put that D pitched between the C and E on the 10'th string in place of the low C, it's out of sequence and somewhat awkward to use there but it's also out of the way for normal C6 stuff and you don't have to change anything under the guitar to try it out.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 6 Feb 2003 8:56 am

Carl,

The last I was aware of what BE was doing with respect to experimenting with the middle D is that he had yet to figure out what the pedal pulls would be. I am not aware of where this project stands, or even if he has ever made a recording or played live with this altered tuning, or totally abandoned it. Do you have any info?

Thanks .. Jeff

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 6 Feb 2003 8:58 am

I have always used a C note on the bottom of my Bb6th. (which would of course be like a D note on a C6th) I can still play a major chord with the root on the bottom, and to do so I lower my D (4th string)a whole tone and my F (7th string) a half tone and play two frets back from any chord.

To achieve the same thing (D chord open)on a standard C6th with the D note on top, play the 1st,4th, 5th and 10th string with the 5th pedal engaged.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 6 Feb 2003 9:35 am

I dropped the low C on my Williams when I added the "middle D" a few months ago.

This week I changed my "pedal 5" (actually pedal 2 on the crossover) to lower the 10th string a step and a half: F down to D instead of up to F#. This gives me the root tone of that D9th chord, which seems to be more important (to me) than the F#. I really like this change. Combined with the middle D, it gives me a 1-5-b7-1 on the low 4 strings; very handy in rock music.

Also, I tune the whole neck up a step from standard, so that change is really an E - very "guitaristic" for the blues. I've been having a lot of fun with it.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 06 February 2003 at 09:39 AM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 6 Feb 2003 9:41 am

I recently added Paul Franklin's 5th pedal changes to my guitar, which can be seen here:
http://b0b.com/tunings/pf_c6.htm
It raises strings 7 C-D, 8 A-C, and 9 F-A. It's not a hard pull at all, and gives me the middle D note when I want it.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 6 Feb 2003 10:11 am

Hi Jeff,

No, I don't know how far BE has gone with the idea. Just know he was experimenting with it. I know the reasoning behind it. It is the same thinking that precipitated the D note for the first string in lieu of the G note.

It is a long way from C to E (musically) and yes, there are times I would love to have it; as I am sure BE does.

But to give up that low C and D root on the 10th string and/or the low root of the boowah pedal, is simply too much for me to even consider dropping the C. And it DOES mess up the standard C6 voicings.

The idea of putting it lower; like on an 11 string guitar appears to have some merit. This I might go for. It would be like the so-called "chromatic" strings on E9th; albeit on the bottom instead of the top. Out of sequence of course, but nice to have. Often aiding a stacatto attack alternating thumb and fingers when picking.

Time will tell which settles in as the standard.

And finally this. It has been said that the PSG has "no standard". From years of study, I believe it IS indeed approaching that. If one talks to the manufacturers as I have, they are shipping more and more their stock set-up which has been posted several times on this forum.

Sure there will always be some that dare to be different. But just like many things, evolution brings similarity more often than not.

God bless you Jeff, BE and all you others out there,

carl

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 6 Feb 2003 11:34 am

On a 10 string, I normally have an E, for E, G, A, C, .....and pedal it down to D or Eb.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 Feb 2003 7:02 pm

I just LOVE that C to A (boo-wah) change, and I have the pedal 5 change on a knee lever...which makes the D far more convenient.

Byron Walcher · Post by **Byron Walcher** » 6 Feb 2003 8:56 pm

How about lowering the middle E a whole tone on a knee lever like Dour Jernigan does. Does anyone have this and does it solve the problem?

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Lashley Legrande D10 8x7,Emmons Legrande 8x7, Sierra Lap-Top, Webb Amps

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 6 Feb 2003 8:58 pm

I know that Curly Chalker used to use a "G" on the bottom or tenth string, that was back in the 60's however.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 6 Feb 2003 11:27 pm

I have dropped the low C so that I could add that middle D note.

So far it has been working for me.

There are many pro players that are into it but I feel uncomfortable speaking for anyone besides myself.

Bob

Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 7 Feb 2003 4:55 am

The C6 tuning on Buddy's road guitar, (the black Emmons LLIII,) is fairly standard.

To include the D in the middle he opted for a 12 string extended C6 tuning.

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My best,
Ernie

The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 7 Feb 2003 5:35 am

My setup on B6 transposed to C6 would look like this: Basic tuning low to high:
F A C D E G A C E D

Pedal changes are as follows:

Pedal 1...Raises the 3rd string C to D and the 4th string A to B.

Pedal 2...Raises the 2nd and 6th strings E's to F and raises the 7th string D to D#.

Pedal 3...Lowers the 5th string G to F# and raises the 10th string F to F#.

Pedal 4...Lowers the 7th string D to C#, lowers the 8th string C to B, and lowers the 10th string F to E.

Knee lever...lowers the 3rd string C to B.

That pretty much does it and the normal combinations seem to work out OK for what I do but I'm no great 6th player so what do I know

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Feb 2003 7:57 pm

How about lowering the middle E a whole tone on a knee lever like Dour Jernigan does. Does anyone have this and does it solve the problem?

I have it set up on a floor pedal and occassionally activate it but it is not part of my standard copedent. Doug Jernigan uses it often for a perfectly voiced 6/9 chord with the 9th string root. He also uses it with pedal 6 so that he has the tonic on the 2 (E) string as the lead melody with the 6/9 chord underneath. This pull is not a common pull and having a separate string for the D is extremely rare among major C6 players, Terry Crisp being the one well-known exception. If you want some more details, ask Ricky Davis. He is in C6 country (Texas), knows all the players, and can fill you in on the copedents of the major C6 players. If you have the option, it is, IMO, far more useful to have a pedal pull (knee lever preferable) that gets you an F note.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 8 Feb 2003 1:31 am

Ok since you asked...ha...
I know of NO Texas steel player that has a
"D" note in the middle of their C6th open tuning.
Yes many may lower the middle E(like I do) to D........but there ya have it.....
Ricky

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 8 Feb 2003 5:34 am

Ricky,
Does Terry Crisp still play with a D string? If not, do you know when and why he stopped using it? Thanks .. Jeff[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 08 February 2003 at 05:37 AM.]

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 8 Feb 2003 8:05 am

I took off the low C because for what I do on this neck the low D is a lot more important. You really have to play with it for a while to understand it, but for me it is as important as having the fixed A notes in the C6th tuning. As a caveat I don't really play 'C6th' on this neck, I just try to play music. I really don't care who else uses it, but I know it works for me.

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www.tyack.com

rhcarden · Post by **rhcarden** » 8 Feb 2003 9:06 am

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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7
[This message was edited by rhcarden on 08 February 2003 at 09:07 AM.][This message was edited by rhcarden on 08 February 2003 at 10:38 AM.][This message was edited by rhcarden on 08 February 2003 at 11:40 AM.][This message was edited by rhcarden on 09 February 2003 at 07:42 AM.]

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 8 Feb 2003 9:33 am

I'm sorry Jeff; I don't know if Terry is still using that or not...
Ricky

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 8 Feb 2003 12:19 pm

Nick Anderson asked

Any big name players doing this?

Dan Tyack responded

I really don't care who else uses it, but I know it works for me.

Dan, you are more than welcome to not care who else uses it, but the original poster (Nick Anderson) asked this perfectly legitimate question, and the thread has been trying to answer that question. The point of your post with respect to this topic eludes me.