John,
I just thought the very early date was interesting!
JB
the Hawaiian steel/ blues slide guitar connection
Moderator: Brad Bechtel
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John Troutman
- Posts: 197
- Joined: 18 Jan 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Washington, DC
Hey John--
For sure, it is early indeed. By the time Handy made this observation, of course, Hawaiian guitarists had been touring the deep South for several years. But we will never know how that individual learned the slide technique--from watching a Native Hawaiian, or a white or black or even a Choctaw southerner (it WAS Mississippi, after all), or whether he came up with it on his own. Son House grew up nearby, however, and he reported that he had never seen anyone play in that style until years after the Handy reference, and even then he referred to the style as the "Hawaiian way." We will never know with certainty about what happened in those very early years of Hawaiian and African American encounters in the South, but it sure is fun to think about!
John
For sure, it is early indeed. By the time Handy made this observation, of course, Hawaiian guitarists had been touring the deep South for several years. But we will never know how that individual learned the slide technique--from watching a Native Hawaiian, or a white or black or even a Choctaw southerner (it WAS Mississippi, after all), or whether he came up with it on his own. Son House grew up nearby, however, and he reported that he had never seen anyone play in that style until years after the Handy reference, and even then he referred to the style as the "Hawaiian way." We will never know with certainty about what happened in those very early years of Hawaiian and African American encounters in the South, but it sure is fun to think about!
John
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David Mason
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Chris Templeton
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Wow, great post. I have to spend more time reading this post before I can fully comment.
A story I heard was that sharecroppers used to string a wire on the side of their house and used a slide on the wire, so you had to have a "good sounding house".
A story I heard was that sharecroppers used to string a wire on the side of their house and used a slide on the wire, so you had to have a "good sounding house".
Excel 3/4 Pedal With An 8 String Hawaiian Neck, Tapper (10 string with a raised fretboard to fret with fingers), Single neck Fessenden 3/5
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Stephen Abruzzo
- Posts: 1183
- Joined: 20 Jan 2009 5:34 pm
- Location: Philly, PA
This guy.....Matt Smith.......postulated the Hawaiian connection to slide guitar back in April 2010. Interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUgtmVLnH3I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUgtmVLnH3I
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Steve Ahola
- Posts: 1004
- Joined: 26 Jan 2010 3:45 pm
- Location: Concord, California
- Contact:
John:
That is a very well-written article but I do disagree with the basic premise: although some blues guitarists were undoubtedly influenced by the Hawaiian guitarists it does not logically follow that it is true for all blues guitarists.
My reasoning behind that is this: a lot of the black people in the South were isolated from the rest of the world so they would have never seen Hawaiian guitarists or even any of the professional blues guitarist who were influenced by them. Alan Lomax recorded many people- black and white- who had never encountered the popular music of the 20th Century, playing songs that were part of their heritage- or at least influenced by it. And while some of the rural communities did have radios and might have heard Hawaiian guitar I don't know if they were always aware that it was played on one's lap with a metal bar or flat blade.
There is nothing particularly inventive about playing a guitar with a bottleneck. If someone completely unschooled in music picked up a guitar it would be natural for him to tune it to an open chord since it would sound harmonious and resonant. Guitar strings hurt your fingers so it would be natural for someone to pick up a deep socket or small glass bottle and slide it up and down the fingerboard. Someone might even figure out that the neck of a bottle worked even better.
Now the idea of playing with the guitar on your lap would not be that natural; with the two bouts and the narrow waist a guitar fits very well on your thigh- much better than it does flat in your lap. I don't think that many people would play a guitar on their lap unless they had already seen someone else do it. (I never thought of doing that myself until I saw someone do it at a small party at my neighbors.)
After breaking my first guitar strings I didn't like to waste anything so I would tie one around a nail on a stucco wall in the basement which was my music room back in the mid to late 60's. I did not use a slide or bottleneck on it, but would wrap the loose end around a big screwdriver and by varying the tension I could pick notes of different pitch with plenty of glissando. It was much later that I learned about the "diddley bow"- what I came up with was strictly my own.
Your article focuses on the more professional black musicians who would generally go from town to town, and would be a lot more cosmopolitan than a folk musician playing his guitar on the front porch of his sharecropper shack, to use a very corny cliche which nonetheless does have some truth in it.
I have always thought that there were two basic types of musicians. On the one hand you have the professional musician (or minstrel in the olde days) who would try to support himself with his music as much as possible. These would be the musicians who were recorded by the labels for 78's to be sold in stores or listened to on the radio.
But there is also what I call the folk musician who plays music for his own enjoyment and hopefully the enjoyment of the people around him. Some of them have been influenced a lot by the musicians that they hear on the radio or records, or see in person. But some of them are "jewels in the rough" so to speak who have developed their own very unique style with little or no influence from modern popular music- it is these people who Alan Lomax sought out when he was doing field recordings in the South, trying to preserve our rustic musical heritage.
I do agree that Hawaiian guitar is often overlooked as a big influence of American music. In the 40's there were a lot more Hawaiian guitars sold than regular guitars, and many of them were electric and came with an amp. There were door-to-door salesmen trying to sell Hawaiian guitars- and the lessons which could be even more profitable.
Just my own thoughts on these things- no offense is intended. I really enjoyed all of the history of Hawaiian guitars presented in your article.
Steve Ahola
P.S. I see that you are from Lafayette, LA. I grew up in Lafayette, CA (which has become very wealthy suburb across the bay from SF) but I have always felt a tie to Louisiana music like zydeco or New Orleans second line like the Meters. One place I always wanted to visit was New Orleans along with the more rural parishes with cajun and zydeco musicians.
That is a very well-written article but I do disagree with the basic premise: although some blues guitarists were undoubtedly influenced by the Hawaiian guitarists it does not logically follow that it is true for all blues guitarists.
My reasoning behind that is this: a lot of the black people in the South were isolated from the rest of the world so they would have never seen Hawaiian guitarists or even any of the professional blues guitarist who were influenced by them. Alan Lomax recorded many people- black and white- who had never encountered the popular music of the 20th Century, playing songs that were part of their heritage- or at least influenced by it. And while some of the rural communities did have radios and might have heard Hawaiian guitar I don't know if they were always aware that it was played on one's lap with a metal bar or flat blade.
There is nothing particularly inventive about playing a guitar with a bottleneck. If someone completely unschooled in music picked up a guitar it would be natural for him to tune it to an open chord since it would sound harmonious and resonant. Guitar strings hurt your fingers so it would be natural for someone to pick up a deep socket or small glass bottle and slide it up and down the fingerboard. Someone might even figure out that the neck of a bottle worked even better.
Now the idea of playing with the guitar on your lap would not be that natural; with the two bouts and the narrow waist a guitar fits very well on your thigh- much better than it does flat in your lap. I don't think that many people would play a guitar on their lap unless they had already seen someone else do it. (I never thought of doing that myself until I saw someone do it at a small party at my neighbors.)
After breaking my first guitar strings I didn't like to waste anything so I would tie one around a nail on a stucco wall in the basement which was my music room back in the mid to late 60's. I did not use a slide or bottleneck on it, but would wrap the loose end around a big screwdriver and by varying the tension I could pick notes of different pitch with plenty of glissando. It was much later that I learned about the "diddley bow"- what I came up with was strictly my own.
Your article focuses on the more professional black musicians who would generally go from town to town, and would be a lot more cosmopolitan than a folk musician playing his guitar on the front porch of his sharecropper shack, to use a very corny cliche which nonetheless does have some truth in it.
I have always thought that there were two basic types of musicians. On the one hand you have the professional musician (or minstrel in the olde days) who would try to support himself with his music as much as possible. These would be the musicians who were recorded by the labels for 78's to be sold in stores or listened to on the radio.
But there is also what I call the folk musician who plays music for his own enjoyment and hopefully the enjoyment of the people around him. Some of them have been influenced a lot by the musicians that they hear on the radio or records, or see in person. But some of them are "jewels in the rough" so to speak who have developed their own very unique style with little or no influence from modern popular music- it is these people who Alan Lomax sought out when he was doing field recordings in the South, trying to preserve our rustic musical heritage.
I do agree that Hawaiian guitar is often overlooked as a big influence of American music. In the 40's there were a lot more Hawaiian guitars sold than regular guitars, and many of them were electric and came with an amp. There were door-to-door salesmen trying to sell Hawaiian guitars- and the lessons which could be even more profitable.
Just my own thoughts on these things- no offense is intended. I really enjoyed all of the history of Hawaiian guitars presented in your article.
Steve Ahola
P.S. I see that you are from Lafayette, LA. I grew up in Lafayette, CA (which has become very wealthy suburb across the bay from SF) but I have always felt a tie to Louisiana music like zydeco or New Orleans second line like the Meters. One place I always wanted to visit was New Orleans along with the more rural parishes with cajun and zydeco musicians.
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits
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John Troutman
- Posts: 197
- Joined: 18 Jan 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Washington, DC
Hi Steve,
Thanks so much for the thoughtful post! I love your commentary on how easy it is to independently develop techniques-- your example of crafting your own, in effect, diddley bows, before you knew such a thing already existed, is awesome, and your point well taken. I think you are right- we'll never know anything with 100 percent certainty, and it is certainly reasonable to suspect that some folks in the South devised the slide technology independently of a Hawaiian influence. I can't and won't claim that we muster this sort of certainty, one way or the other. The article, however, lays what argument I believe can be made, based upon the existant evidence.
As for the idea that there were people living in the South in the early 20th century who were so isolated from that they never encountered popular music, it is interesting to see how the research and scholarship on this notion has dramatically changed over the years-- I figured I would take a second to write a little bit about those developments, so you have a better sense of where I am coming from.
It was the early folklorists such as John Lomax (Alan's father) who first developed the idea that the "folk" (their research subjects--typically comprised of poor or imprisoned rural whites and blacks) lived in isolation from the "popular," and that their isolation preserved a sort of "anti-modern," "primitive" cultural integrity of the past that folklorists could present to the, well, "urbane," "overly-civilized," "modern" "non-folk"-- people living in cities, well-educated, middle class, etc.. In other words, presenting the anti-modern "folk" became the service that folklorists believed they could provide to these urban, middle class audiences. Their work along these lines is indeed a wonderful legacy that we continue to enjoy-- we now have a tremendous record or these rural peoples' lives that we would not have had otherwise, were it not for the work and determination of these early folklorists. I certainly feel hugely indebted to them, and I take great pleasure in reading their books and listening to their recordings. I love their work, including the vast, later contributions of Alan Lomax.
Folklorists and historians these days, however, are reexamining the personal papers and research notes of the early folklorists. In doing so, we are realizing that their core, organizing assumptions and principles, with regard to the concepts of "the folk" and "cultural isolation," have greatly obscured the realities of early 20th century rural communities--that they were much more fluent in various modes of modernity (in this case, urban, popular music), than earlier folklorists have led us to believe. Some of the best scholarship in music history speaks to this very issue-- these are not my arguments, but arguments that have reshaped current understandings of early 20th century music and its relationship to rural populations. My favorite book on this subject is by a scholar from the University of Texas at Austin, named Karl Hagstrom Miller. Karl's outstanding recent book is entitled, _Segregating Sound: Inventing Folk and Pop Music in the Age of Jim Crow_. It is absolutely brilliant, and he writes in depth of the work of John Lomax. Elijah Wald's _ Escaping the Delta: Robert Johnson and the Invention of the Blues_ is also very good, and highly enjoyable reading for anyone (like me) who loves Robert Johnson's exceptional guitar and vocal work. See also Marybeth Hamilton's _In Search of the Blues_ and Benjamin Filene's _Romancing the Folk: Public Memory and American Roots Music_.
So, it might be helpful to see my own reexamination of what we think we know about Hawaiians and black southerners in light of this growing body of scholarship. In researching and writing this piece I had to reevaluate my own, long held, core assumptions- that black southerners developed and spread the slide guitar technique independently of the "outside world," and that Hawaiians did not substantially influence southern culture in the early 20th century. After poring over the evidence for a couple of years, I have come to believe that my core assumptions were, well, ill-informed. They were ill-informed in part due to the fact that we now we have much greater access to, for example, rural southern newspapers. These papers are revealing to us a much different world than we had earlier understood existed in the South. But they were also ill-informed because that core folklore concept--that of the culturally-isolated "folk"--has for decades worked against our ability to understand the past. The notion of the "folk," attractive to us for a variety of reasons, has seeped into our consciousness and into our psyche to the extent that it is very difficult to envision a world that is not split into the domains of the "folk" and the "popular," the "modern" and "anti-modern."
As for Lafayette, LA, well, you have to come visit! New Orleans is a wonderful place, as is Lafayette, and the musical opportunities around here, for listening, dancing, and playing, are just stunning. You gotta come, and when you do, we'll get together and talk more music! Thanks again for checking out the piece and weighing in. I really appreciate your comments!
John
Thanks so much for the thoughtful post! I love your commentary on how easy it is to independently develop techniques-- your example of crafting your own, in effect, diddley bows, before you knew such a thing already existed, is awesome, and your point well taken. I think you are right- we'll never know anything with 100 percent certainty, and it is certainly reasonable to suspect that some folks in the South devised the slide technology independently of a Hawaiian influence. I can't and won't claim that we muster this sort of certainty, one way or the other. The article, however, lays what argument I believe can be made, based upon the existant evidence.
As for the idea that there were people living in the South in the early 20th century who were so isolated from that they never encountered popular music, it is interesting to see how the research and scholarship on this notion has dramatically changed over the years-- I figured I would take a second to write a little bit about those developments, so you have a better sense of where I am coming from.
It was the early folklorists such as John Lomax (Alan's father) who first developed the idea that the "folk" (their research subjects--typically comprised of poor or imprisoned rural whites and blacks) lived in isolation from the "popular," and that their isolation preserved a sort of "anti-modern," "primitive" cultural integrity of the past that folklorists could present to the, well, "urbane," "overly-civilized," "modern" "non-folk"-- people living in cities, well-educated, middle class, etc.. In other words, presenting the anti-modern "folk" became the service that folklorists believed they could provide to these urban, middle class audiences. Their work along these lines is indeed a wonderful legacy that we continue to enjoy-- we now have a tremendous record or these rural peoples' lives that we would not have had otherwise, were it not for the work and determination of these early folklorists. I certainly feel hugely indebted to them, and I take great pleasure in reading their books and listening to their recordings. I love their work, including the vast, later contributions of Alan Lomax.
Folklorists and historians these days, however, are reexamining the personal papers and research notes of the early folklorists. In doing so, we are realizing that their core, organizing assumptions and principles, with regard to the concepts of "the folk" and "cultural isolation," have greatly obscured the realities of early 20th century rural communities--that they were much more fluent in various modes of modernity (in this case, urban, popular music), than earlier folklorists have led us to believe. Some of the best scholarship in music history speaks to this very issue-- these are not my arguments, but arguments that have reshaped current understandings of early 20th century music and its relationship to rural populations. My favorite book on this subject is by a scholar from the University of Texas at Austin, named Karl Hagstrom Miller. Karl's outstanding recent book is entitled, _Segregating Sound: Inventing Folk and Pop Music in the Age of Jim Crow_. It is absolutely brilliant, and he writes in depth of the work of John Lomax. Elijah Wald's _ Escaping the Delta: Robert Johnson and the Invention of the Blues_ is also very good, and highly enjoyable reading for anyone (like me) who loves Robert Johnson's exceptional guitar and vocal work. See also Marybeth Hamilton's _In Search of the Blues_ and Benjamin Filene's _Romancing the Folk: Public Memory and American Roots Music_.
So, it might be helpful to see my own reexamination of what we think we know about Hawaiians and black southerners in light of this growing body of scholarship. In researching and writing this piece I had to reevaluate my own, long held, core assumptions- that black southerners developed and spread the slide guitar technique independently of the "outside world," and that Hawaiians did not substantially influence southern culture in the early 20th century. After poring over the evidence for a couple of years, I have come to believe that my core assumptions were, well, ill-informed. They were ill-informed in part due to the fact that we now we have much greater access to, for example, rural southern newspapers. These papers are revealing to us a much different world than we had earlier understood existed in the South. But they were also ill-informed because that core folklore concept--that of the culturally-isolated "folk"--has for decades worked against our ability to understand the past. The notion of the "folk," attractive to us for a variety of reasons, has seeped into our consciousness and into our psyche to the extent that it is very difficult to envision a world that is not split into the domains of the "folk" and the "popular," the "modern" and "anti-modern."
As for Lafayette, LA, well, you have to come visit! New Orleans is a wonderful place, as is Lafayette, and the musical opportunities around here, for listening, dancing, and playing, are just stunning. You gotta come, and when you do, we'll get together and talk more music! Thanks again for checking out the piece and weighing in. I really appreciate your comments!
John
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Jerome Hawkes
- Posts: 1385
- Joined: 8 May 2009 7:16 am
- Location: Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
John - THANK YOU so much for that reply - i had planned to post something similar about "folk music"... but what do i know?...you are so right about the early folklorist, and bless them, they did great work, but remember, they (the "folk") were in a way, like the circus curiosities of the late 1800s...urban people were eating up this stuff, but it had to be 'authentic' - i remember reading where Mississippi John Hurt was asked about a tune he played and he said he learned it off an old "78 record" and they were, oh s#*!, we cant have that...these guys werent suppose to own radios and have Victrolas...
i do love your view, you are kicking some buckets over brother, but i agree with some of the others in that the blues guys hold this (mythology) stuff like the Gospel - man are they gonna be a hornets nest when they are told some Hawaiians may be responsible for introducing them to slide guitar....
I think that we greatly over simplify our perception of what life was like based mainly on the way hollywood and fiction wrote 'the script' - we want to think it was all Little House on the Prairie, but it wasnt.
People have always been social and curious of news from the outside world, fashions, etc. now there were parts of america / appalachia / strict religious groups that were fairly removed from popular culture, but that was the exception.
i do love your view, you are kicking some buckets over brother, but i agree with some of the others in that the blues guys hold this (mythology) stuff like the Gospel - man are they gonna be a hornets nest when they are told some Hawaiians may be responsible for introducing them to slide guitar....
I think that we greatly over simplify our perception of what life was like based mainly on the way hollywood and fiction wrote 'the script' - we want to think it was all Little House on the Prairie, but it wasnt.
People have always been social and curious of news from the outside world, fashions, etc. now there were parts of america / appalachia / strict religious groups that were fairly removed from popular culture, but that was the exception.
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II
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Guy Cundell
- Posts: 901
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Jerome Hawkes
- Posts: 1385
- Joined: 8 May 2009 7:16 am
- Location: Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
I don't know how this professional scholarly research stuff goes....but boy, it would be interesting to post this research on one of the heavy blues sites and watch the action (from a safe distance) We are probably way to open to accept this theory over here.
I'm gonna try and make the symposium on the 23d after all - see you there John.
I'm gonna try and make the symposium on the 23d after all - see you there John.
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II
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Don Kona Woods
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- Location: Hawaiian Kama'aina
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Steve Ahola
- Posts: 1004
- Joined: 26 Jan 2010 3:45 pm
- Location: Concord, California
- Contact:
John:
Thanks for your in-depth reply. Yes, I have this "thing" about there being professional musicians who play for money and what I call "folk" musicians who play for personal enjoyment (I like to consider myself to be one of the latter although I have made a few bucks playing blues guitar.) Going way back you had the minstrels who tried to avoid working a "real" job whenever possible. And there were the common folk who had to work and enjoyed making music when they were done.
What I call "folk" music can include blues, rock, country and even jazz. (Chess had a series of albums called The Real Folk Blues and More Real Folk Blues in the mid-60's and most of the performances were with an electric band. The term "folk blues"does bring to mind Big Bill Broonzy in the 50's and 60's where it was just him and his acoustic guitar on stage as he toured throughout the US and Europe.
I agree that many of the assumptions of Alan Lomax were wrong, namely that the music he recorded was often from a completely isolated environment. He recorded some songs which he assumed were completely original and "untouched by modern music" only we discovered later that the song had been recorded previously and was in the repertoire of many musicians who traveled the area. We have run across the same phenomenon in primitive cultures around the world; the influence of the modern world can be more pervasive than we think.
There were many black blues musicians who did play their guitar on their lap with a bar and I think that if you traced back their influences it would end up being the Hawaiian guitarists.
Thanks again for taking the time to reply to my post. I grew up with the blues- I listen to the blues, play the blues, and live the blues (I guess it got into my blood!)
Steve Ahola
P.S. Thanks for bringing up Robert Johnson! Many people consider him to be the penultimate blues artist. However when he was recorded the producer was told to record only blues numbers ("They're Red Hot" managed to slip by- it is a ragtime number, not a blues.) In his live performances he played all sorts of music depending on his audience.
EDIT I remembered today that I built a lap steel when I was 17 in 1969 from a nice piece of mahogany that my father was saving. I had never seen a lap steel or even known that they existed. I used parts from a guitar that I had screwed up (the world's first fretless guitar!) and secured nails on a block of wood for the nut and bridge. I thought it was my own invention...
BTW I tuned it to open E to play Muddy Waters blues and Pink Floyd space music (that was before I ever heard of Pink Floyd!)
I mention all of that just to support the theory that people can develop the same ideas or inventions independently. Once technology (or the state of music) reaches a certain point there is often an next step which will occur to different people independently. That's the same theory that says that if Thomas Edison hadn't invented the light bulb someone else would have since the light bulb was anxiously waiting to be invented.
Thanks for your in-depth reply. Yes, I have this "thing" about there being professional musicians who play for money and what I call "folk" musicians who play for personal enjoyment (I like to consider myself to be one of the latter although I have made a few bucks playing blues guitar.) Going way back you had the minstrels who tried to avoid working a "real" job whenever possible. And there were the common folk who had to work and enjoyed making music when they were done.
What I call "folk" music can include blues, rock, country and even jazz. (Chess had a series of albums called The Real Folk Blues and More Real Folk Blues in the mid-60's and most of the performances were with an electric band. The term "folk blues"does bring to mind Big Bill Broonzy in the 50's and 60's where it was just him and his acoustic guitar on stage as he toured throughout the US and Europe.
I agree that many of the assumptions of Alan Lomax were wrong, namely that the music he recorded was often from a completely isolated environment. He recorded some songs which he assumed were completely original and "untouched by modern music" only we discovered later that the song had been recorded previously and was in the repertoire of many musicians who traveled the area. We have run across the same phenomenon in primitive cultures around the world; the influence of the modern world can be more pervasive than we think.
There were many black blues musicians who did play their guitar on their lap with a bar and I think that if you traced back their influences it would end up being the Hawaiian guitarists.
Thanks again for taking the time to reply to my post. I grew up with the blues- I listen to the blues, play the blues, and live the blues (I guess it got into my blood!)
Steve Ahola
P.S. Thanks for bringing up Robert Johnson! Many people consider him to be the penultimate blues artist. However when he was recorded the producer was told to record only blues numbers ("They're Red Hot" managed to slip by- it is a ragtime number, not a blues.) In his live performances he played all sorts of music depending on his audience.
EDIT I remembered today that I built a lap steel when I was 17 in 1969 from a nice piece of mahogany that my father was saving. I had never seen a lap steel or even known that they existed. I used parts from a guitar that I had screwed up (the world's first fretless guitar!) and secured nails on a block of wood for the nut and bridge. I thought it was my own invention...
BTW I tuned it to open E to play Muddy Waters blues and Pink Floyd space music (that was before I ever heard of Pink Floyd!)I mention all of that just to support the theory that people can develop the same ideas or inventions independently. Once technology (or the state of music) reaches a certain point there is often an next step which will occur to different people independently. That's the same theory that says that if Thomas Edison hadn't invented the light bulb someone else would have since the light bulb was anxiously waiting to be invented.
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits