Playing Around The Lead Guitarist

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 11 Feb 2013 11:22 am

That is a rough one... I deal with similar issues on a daily basis. Drunk bass players, drummers that can't keep time, narcissist singers and on and on. What I do is practice more so I can move up the food chain. But the food chain is very different in different areas so you do what you can.

I have adopted a attitude of despair. Most of the time its not worth saying anything cause you just piss people off. Better to do your best to have fun, get the money then move on when you can.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 11 Feb 2013 11:47 am

I totally agree with Bob Hoffnar on this one. In my experience, Kumbaya sessions don't work, and ultimatums don't work, UNLESS you are dealing with quality musicians, who probably don't need either form of therapy/education.

Keep practicing, and play with whomever you have to, until something better comes along.

Also: take a good look in the mirror; are you guilty of the same behavior at times? I know I am.

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 11 Feb 2013 12:11 pm

This topic appears to be a "Hot Button Issue"! In the band I play with there are 3 lead instruments. Sax, steel and lead guitar. Our sax player is really a pretty good player, but he has absolutely no sense of when, where or why to play or lay back. From the moment the first note of the song begins, he starts putting in fills. He never allows our guitarist or me to put in a fill. Sometimes he'll even harmonize over the lead vocalist. When I sense that he's gonna be a little slow to start a fill, I'll get 2 or 3 notes in but he'll come blasting in turn it into a train wreck. Our band leader has mentioned this to him too many times to say. I have quit the side band that included him because of it, and in the house band we're in I just lay out until a solo ride comes my way. It's not worth getting into a fight over because it's the band leader's job to fix the problem. Way too many lead guitars have this problem. They either can't stop playing or they play way too loud. I like it when they play rhythm guitar at lead guitar volume. That makes me get up and walk off.

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 11 Feb 2013 12:22 pm

So it's not just me. I feel better now. Thanks!

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 11 Feb 2013 1:39 pm

I have done it all, talked to them; just stopped playing at all until they noticed, which they never do; blew them off the stage with my volume; you name it I have done it. More often than not they are who they are and they are going to keep playing.

Sit back take the money and run or just quit and join another band or start one.

Some times you may have to just turn up and jump in with both feet to get their attention.

A month ago I just played for 4 straight hours, I never stopped. Both guitar players just went right on picking away at the same time and never even missed a beat. I was blown away. I have also sat there for four hours and played an intro or fill on 2 songs a set, same result they never had a clue, just kept on playing. So I just took the money.

My wife likes my playing so I play around with her at home, I mean play for her.

Larry Behm

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 11 Feb 2013 2:16 pm

I was once told by a lead guitarist (paraphrase) "I don't know what that thing does but I'm the lead guitarist, and I play all the leads."

Some people are just assholes. Not much you can do about it.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 11 Feb 2013 3:08 pm

Most of the time its not worth saying anything cause you just piss people off. Better to do your best to have fun, get the money then move on when you can. ... What I do is practice more so I can move up the food chain. But the food chain is very different in different areas so you do what you can.

That's my experience also, which is why I responded as I did earlier.

Occasionally talking helps, sometimes finessing helps, sometimes occasionally turning the amp on stun and muscling in helps, but sometimes I just let it ride for a while, or decide the hell with it. I'm not making a living at this now, and I won't put up with a lot of nonsense. My main problem is that a lot of the best musicians around here (and probably most places) need to be playing gigs ALL the time to survive, and I can't do that. So I tend to work a lot with people who don't need to play a lot. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not so good, and if it gets really annoying, I can just bail out. But if you need to play to survive, you do what you gotta do.

I have to confess that I'm a guitar nut and have been playing 6-string guitar for a long time. I sorta' don't mind a good guitar player doing the 'stunt guitar player' thing sometimes, hell I enjoy it sometimes too. If they're good, we can usually work things out. But hacks who want to stomp all over everything really annoy me, and they're the ones that tend to want to do that. Such is life.

Dana Blodgett · Post by **Dana Blodgett** » 11 Feb 2013 4:33 pm

Mike Perlwin nailed it in just a few words! I love it!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Feb 2013 5:04 pm

I can't really tell you what to do because I don't know why he's doing what he's doing. Maybe he's unaware that he's overplaying? (Old habits can be hard to break.) Maybe he's against having a steel in the band? It could even be that your playing is not up to snuff, and he (or someone else?) thinks the band sounds better with him doing most of the playing.

At any rate, record a set or two, and then ask the entire band to listen to it and give an honest opinion about the sound. If they feel the same as you do, you'll have a much better chance of getting your point across to ""Mr. Play It All". But if they're all on his side, you'll have to decide if staying is worth the frustration you're evidently feeling.

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 11 Feb 2013 7:32 pm

Turn up and play all over him.........sooner or later he will holler uncle. I mean don't give him even a chance to pick without you walking all over him.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 11 Feb 2013 7:55 pm

Sometimes these guys, especially those who have never played with another lead instrument before, don't understand that the bigger the band, the less solo time everybody gets.

Perhaps a solution would be play the guy some records where one instrument takes the fills And the first half of the ride, and the other instrument plays the fills on the chorus and 2nd half, and everybody stays out of everybody's way. Sow him how it's supposed to be, how the big boys do it.

I have to mention that when I played with our fellow forumite Leo Eiffert, he had a lead guitarist who completely understood this, and was a perfect picking partner.

I don't play with Leo (who is a pretty hot guitar player himself) anymore because his gigs are all around 75 or so miles from me, and I don't want to drive that far. But when I did play with him, it was a real pleasure working with a guitar player who did it right.

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 11 Feb 2013 8:24 pm

I've encountered them all. The narcissists. the "it's all about me" players. The assholes. The clueless. Those still in high school. Those with an attitude.

As for those who think the world wants them to dominate the tune they're playing, I politely ask them once to shut up. Once. If they do, great. If not, I keep my mouth shut and start looking elsewhere.

You can't change people. Not one.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 12 Feb 2013 3:48 am

we are all still pontificating..Jason still has not responded with the scenario...

He was on Bass..now he is on Steel..One lead Instrument and now Two ? If this is the case ,by now we should all know you just don't do that overnight...

When this does happen, it requires discussion, rehearsals and a meeting of the minds...we do not know the details of the move to Steel...

When a band goes from ONE lead Instrument to TWO..it's a whole new band...

We do not know if the guitar guy is a narcissist, A-hole or whatever..maybe all the music has been on his shoulders for a long time, maybe he has been carrying the band...maybe he is the founder... a lot of maybe's...maybe he really doesn't know how to work with another lead player, maybe he has never done that before...

I've worked with plenty of good players, good guys who just didn't know how to commune with another lead instrument...I've worked with Steel players who had the same problem !

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 12 Feb 2013 6:23 am

You're right, Tony - to a certain extent we're speculating based on what's in the original post, and also projecting based on our own experiences that sound similar. I also looked at the OP's facebook page link in his profile - https://www.facebook.com/RumleyBrothers. These are the comments that I centered on in formulating my responses:

He doesn't stray too far from his pentatonic scales and his phrasing is okay too. Enough that his friends will tell him how awesome he is. Since I've picked up steel in the band(moving from bass) over a year ago he hasn't changed a single lick in his playing. ...
On top of that, he's told me a few times to "Keep it simple and do a lot of volume swells".. which I was a little offended by. On some songs I don't feel like I can play without immediately clashing with him doing pedal steel sounding licks.

I've just seen this so many times with younger roots-rock, modern-country, and/or blues guitarists, but you're correct that there may be other issues. I also agree that it is premature to conclude that the guitarist is a narcissist or an asshole - I don't hear that coming from the OP, just that he's having trouble working in the steel on some of the older, established tunes. I sometimes have this problem when I play outside a pure classic-country context (which is a lot of the time), and this situation doesn't sound hopeless to me.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 12 Feb 2013 7:06 am

Dave Mudgett wrote: to a certain extent we're ... projecting based on our own experiences that sound similar.

The key words in Dave's statement are "our" and "experiences," plural. This has not happened once or twice to a few of us. It happens all too often, to most, if not all of us.

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 12 Feb 2013 8:48 am

I worked with a great guitar man who was a big band player. He was very good as a rhythm player and excellent on the lead. His touch was a joy to behold.
Sometimes too many compliments go to the head.
One of my biggest problems is the band followers who tell us how great we are. AND..... most of the band believes it.
I have worked with blue grassers trying to play country and country bands trying to play over their head and so it goes. We were making better music sixty years ago with six string steels and low powered amps.
The concept of the sound of the whole band has been lost for the most part up here.
I guess I grew up thinking that the object was to compliment the vocalist and not over ride them with worthless fills played at too high a volumes and cluttered up with every effect known to man.
I have had folks listen to a good example of how to play a song and their reply was " I didn't think that was particularly good.
One lead man after I explained how it should be, asked me " Well what should I do when you are playing, Just Stand there?. I answered " That wouldn't be all bad Robert ".
Take the money and run or stay home and sleep better..

Jason Rumley · Post by **Jason Rumley** » 12 Feb 2013 9:23 am

Thanks for all the great replies guys. I've been taking a lot of it in.

I certainly know I'm guilty of overplaying myself from time to time. I've tried overplaying to see if he gets the point and that just makes more of a racket. A lot of my frustration comes from taking the time to practice and hone my skill during the winter and not seeing that in my band mates. Of course, I had a longer way to go to become proficient than they did playing 5th and open chords w/ 5-note scales.

I don't think that he's a narcissist or anything like that. I think he's had to take the lead position for so long that he doesn't know better. He's 21 and a solid player, like I said, but he's gotten comfortable in his playing and I think a lot of comes from his education. He just can't do it if he doesn't have the musical vocabulary needed. We also haven't taken as much time as we should to rearrange songs with steel parts. Now we're discussing adding fiddle and I'm afraid it's gonna just be a mess. I'm gonna have a sidebar with him and discuss it.

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 12 Feb 2013 9:44 am

Willis Vanderberg wrote:One lead man after I explained how it should be, asked me " Well what should I do when you are playing, Just Stand there?. I answered " That wouldn't be all bad Robert ".
better..

Willis, tell him he should do exactly what you do when he's playing the fills or lead.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 12 Feb 2013 10:07 am

Willis Vanderberg wrote:
One lead man after I explained how it should be, asked me " Well what should I do when you are playing, Just Stand there?. I answered " That wouldn't be all bad Robert "

The best answer is "Play rhythm." Preferably little staccato chinks on the off beats, with silence between them.

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 12 Feb 2013 10:15 am

I knew I was in trouble when the guitar player said to me: "I can't lay out because I won't know how to get back in". True story.

Some guys just never had to learn to lay out and don't know how. Supporting the song is a new level of musical maturity that many never are able, or care, to reach. They spend years acquiring a huge catalog of licks and learning how to apply them continuously and inventively throughout the song. Ensemble playing is anathema for them.

It's almost like trying to convince an alcoholic that he has a problem and needs help. He'll remain in extreme denial until he can admit to himself there's a problem and find his own reasons to want to change. In your case, the guy has to realize that another approach might make the band sound better and then he has to apply himself to unlearn a lifetime of habits. At this point in my career, I don't have time to waste. If the player gets it fine, if not I'm out. Good luck!

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 12 Feb 2013 10:28 am

I'm looking at a new band situation, and tell you what, I'm gonna bookmark this thread & have the other players read it before it becomes a drama.
Thanks friends!

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 12 Feb 2013 11:54 am

I certainly know I'm guilty of overplaying myself from time to time. I've tried overplaying to see if he gets the point and that just makes more of a racket.

FWIW, I was emphatically not suggesting you overplay (and I agree, most of us do that sometimes, I'm definitely guilty). Instead, I was suggesting that when it seems like a prime time for an occasional steel fill that it may make sense to periodically but tastefully just set the amp on stun and put it out there with big brass cojones. If you're restrained about how often you do this but make it very clear that you're gonna muscle your way in occasionally, they may get the idea, and may even like it and cede you some space.

I don't think that he's a narcissist or anything like that. I think he's had to take the lead position for so long that he doesn't know better. He's 21 and a solid player, like I said, but he's gotten comfortable in his playing and I think a lot of comes from his education. He just can't do it if he doesn't have the musical vocabulary needed. We also haven't taken as much time as we should to rearrange songs with steel parts. Now we're discussing adding fiddle and I'm afraid it's gonna just be a mess. I'm gonna have a sidebar with him and discuss it.

Sounds like a plan to me. Good luck.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 12 Feb 2013 1:07 pm

You might try working out some doubled parts with him. Harmonize the melody for a solo or work out a twined intro. Stuff like that.
It can make the band sound better and if nothing else will make you two more aware of each other on stage.

Jim Lindsey (Louisiana) · Post by **Jim Lindsey (Louisiana)** » 12 Feb 2013 10:59 pm

Mike Perlowin wrote:I was once told by a lead guitarist (paraphrase) "I don't know what that thing does but I'm the lead guitarist, and I play all the leads."

That's when it's time to pull out the old six shooter and have a serious talk with him ...

Mike, the one undesirable guitarist I ever worked with (mentioned in my earlier post) said pretty much those same words to me. I said, "That's fine" and I just padded backup chords every night. Shortly afterward a night came when some heavy tipping rich fellow came up and offered the band a $200 tip if we'd play Steel Guitar Rag! I just pointed at the lead player and said, "Talk to him ... he's the one who plays all the leads!" and I refused to play the song ... well, the band wanted that $200 tip, so they made him play it. Result? He tried to play it, botched the song like a big dawg, made a complete fool of himself with it, we didn't get the $200 tip because the patron said he wasn't going to pay a big tip like that to "hear that crappy guitar player" and the guitar player was so mad he quit the band at the end of the gig that very night. We cheerfully hired another lead player (no one in the band liked the one that quit anyway).

Michael Wolfe · Post by **Michael Wolfe** » 13 Feb 2013 1:06 am

I have often said that musicians as a group are egomaniacs and guitar players are the worst. I have seen enough of them and been one myself.

Although I mostly play for myself these days or play in church (I usually get drafted for "contemporary" music) the last memorable band I was in was very specific about when I should solo and when I shouldn't. I was known for my fondness of Fender Telecasters and the leader would say "here is where we need to put the Telecaster solo". So I would put the solo there and when not playing lead solos I would revert to playing my fingerstyle rhythm stuff, which contrasted nicely with the acoustic strummer. It was fun.

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Playing Around The Lead Guitarist

playing around the lead guitarist