The Rise of the 8 string and Fall of the 10 string PSG!

Instruments, mechanical issues, copedents, techniques, etc.

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Dave Mudgett
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Post by Dave Mudgett »

This may anger even more players, but asking...are you really using that 10th string (or 8th string or the lower B note? Of all the thousands of licks and lead psg solos in songs that I have heard, it sure sounds like the first 5 strings are all that are utilized.
Dale - it doesn't anger me. But I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. In your opening post, you say you'll dispense with the first two strings. Well, that's how it started more or less 50-60 years ago, there's lots of good music to be made. I strongly argue, as others have, that if the issue is that you're having trouble with the top 2 re-entrant strings ringing, you need to work on your muting/blocking, not give up the re-entrant strings, but that's your call.

But now you're saying "Most everything is in just the top 5 strings." Not true, but it is true that a lot of the 'Hot Licks Department' stuff is up there, especially using the top-two re-entrant strings. But if you're not gonna deal with the re-entrant strings, this leaves strings 3 through 5 - a 3-string pedal steel? Well, this is how a lot of beginners start in the first few weeks/months, but there's a helluvalot more to pedal steel than this.

I really think you need to listen to a lot more steel guitar players and music before you draw these kinds of, IMO, completely unfounded conclusions. I personally play a 12-string universal steel quite a bit, which goes a whole octave below the low-B of E9, and the lower strings come in useful, especially for blues and rock, or if you want to do some of the low-string swing-jazz stylings that are typically done on the C6 neck. The range of the pedal steel is quite breathtaking, that's one of its strong points. I suppose if you want to relegate the instrument to textural pads and standard A/B-pedal licks plus some slide-guitaristic sliding around, you could get by with a 6-string tuned B E G# B E G# (i.e., like strings 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3 in the E9 tuning) - or just tune it like an E-tuned guitar E B E G# B E. There's plenty of music there, it's your call. Lone Star Steels makes a nice 6-string pedal steel that's compact and light, in fact there was one in For Sale - Steel Guitars not long ago for under a grand. But even if I wanted a steel for just this kind of action, I'd probably want at least 7-8 strings to get the full low-E to high-G# range and maybe a re-entrant string or the middle F# melodic note, which also gives you the 6th tone in the A chord when you push A+B pedals down.

But I still think that if you really want to be able to do the classic pedal steel stylings, you would be wise to stick with at least the full E9. The people that dreamed this up really were thinking music when they did it. My take.
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Tony Prior
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Re: 8 string 10 string

Post by Tony Prior »

Dale Kath wrote: All those who have honestly, honestly touched that 10th B note string, in the last month, raise your hand.

Either you are trolling and we are all suckers or indeed you are hopelessly mislead.

Dale, buddy, I am in your corner but I'm drifting fast... The two top strings for even a Novice + player are not just required, they are mandatory...

Many of us here are not getting the "argument" against. Including me.. What is the purpose of arguing with a forum full of Pedal Steel players ? If you don't understand the 10 string tuning..fine..we all get that..but that's a far cry from suggesting that a forum full of players are just carrying around two extra strings for no reason...

you are either taking advice from someone who knows less than you..which is very common on forums, stubborn about getting a "serious" teacher..or you are trolling us all and we have been dragged into mud...

Not only do I have and use the two top strings, like MOST players, I have knee levers that PULL the two top strings above the natural note and a lever that drops the 2nd string TWO notes below the natural, giving me 4 notes on the 2nd string without using the bar. And yes I use them every time I play, probably every tune I play..I gotta be honest here, I use these and I don't even think about it..I don't have a counter adding up how many times they are used...


so..whats the question again ?
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Dale Kath
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8 string 10 string

Post by Dale Kath »

I might have got this wrong ( I had a long day yesterday). :? :? I understood the string closest to my body is the 10th string, working up to the 1st. Thinking about it, now, I put up a confusing post and I apologize.
My first post:
I was implying (or trying to) that an 8 string psg could be the standard, as some have admitted, that those top two strings can be tricky as they do not raise in tone naturally ( think piano or harpsichord). Maybe this would encourage more to take up this fantastic instrument.
What I have learned: trust history ,the pioneers of the instrument, the E9 tuning, and the 98% who fully utilize all strings. Plus, play whatever configuration that I feel most comfortable with. And get some personalized lessons (I'm trying,the instructor I was referred to has not replied yet, he may be very busy at this time).

As for my post about a 5 string: I'm just saying, a lot of the 5 second psg licks heard on records seem to utilize those top 5 strings, only.
What I've learned: skilled psg players utilize all strings pressed against their bellies, be it a 6, 8, 10, 12, or 14 stringer. I.....am not a skilled player. (But I am striving to be at least a confident player)
Thank you all for your input, I do not wish to drag anyone through any mud...I just have questions and the pros are setting me straight. Thank you all, no disrespect intended,
Honestly,
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Post by Kirk Eipper »

I rely on the chromatic tuning for a lot of my playing. I would really miss those strings.

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Post by Fred Glave »

I find it hard to believe that there are many steel players past the beginner stage who don't need, like or want all 10 strings. Lord knows I've had my struggles with the layout here and there. If you ever have the chance to sit down with an accomplished player and watch him/her do their thing, they will blow your mind... with all 10 strings. If you don't have a teacher in your area, there are a ton of Youtube videos to show you up-close just why all 10 strings are needed. If I only had an 8 string steel I would still want the chromatic tuning with F# and D# on top. I'd have a lever to drop low E to D and another to drop low G# to F#. And as I was doing all of this, I'd be shopping for a 10 string as quick as I could.
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Re: When you (blank) upon a star

Post by Donny Hinson »

Mike Perlowin wrote:If I didn't have the 2 chromatic strings I couldn't play the word "wish" in my version of the song. I also couldn't play the syllable "Diff" in the word Difference.
The notes are still there, Mike, regardless of what tuning you use. They're in different places, and you (or any other steeler) should be able to play something in a different way - just for the knowledge you gain by doing it! So may steelers play things in only one way that it's possible to watch some and predict exactly what they're going to do next, and how they're going to interpret a phrase. I've sat at steel shows and heard players say things like..."Watch and see if he don't use the 1st and 2nd raise when they go up to the "D" chord." :D

Playing out of different positions and in different ways, different keys, and different tunings tells everyone that you really know the tuning and setup, and that you just haven't memorized some piece of tab you've come across.

Here's an exanple...my good buddy Gary Gimble playing "Together Again"...on C6th! :whoa:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zj3x82bcXU
Fred Glave wrote:I find it hard to believe that there are many steel players past the beginner stage who don't need, like or want all 10 strings. Lord knows I've had my struggles with the layout here and there. If you ever have the chance to sit down with an accomplished player and watch him/her do their thing, they will blow your mind... with all 10 strings.
Fred, a real master can blow your mind with 8 strings and NO pedals! :mrgreen:

It's not the number of strings, pedals, the tuning, or the guitar...it's the player who amazes. 8)
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Post by Larry Bressington »

If we had to loose 2 strings, i'd rather loose 10 and 9 than 1 and 2, we got to have those carefully devised string placements in the upper register of our tuning in my opinion. Very well thought out by those of the day...In fact i really think that Buddy and those were way ahead of things back then, because they diden't have lots of knee levers either, and they did a lot more 'slide n snag' and thinking than most do today... Today we just add another lever so we can have a cool looking 10 pedal/8 lever guitar, when we can slide, thumb block, grab another string whilst on the move and doing a quick volume mute effect. Something those boys were great at, Lloyd green and his 'Richochet effect' wow i love it, i'm definatly 'old school' and 'for less' but not to be without those 2 strings.
I would say Loose 'Knee levers' before loosing open strings, to simplify this beautiful tuning.

I do respect the thread and the quest for less strings as an option to simplify our machines, you might be on to something cool with an 8 shooter loosing the lower strings. All the old Hank stuff would be ok, but i would not want to speed pick weldon myrick/Hal rugg chops without those 2 strings. It just depends on what you want out of the steel, not everybody is a Nashville style speed picker and wants a contemporary sound.

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Post by b0b »

The quality of music is not directly related to the number of strings. There are some some steel guitar styles and "licks" that can't be easily replicated with less than 5 strings per octave. So what? There are many things musically that are difficult or impossible on a standard 6-string guitar, and yet great music is produced in many styles on the instrument. People continue to find new, exciting chord progressions and phrasings without even changing the tuning.

Within the limitations of any instrument, music itself has no limits. It's an infinite subject. If you divide infinity by any number, it's still infinity. The only real limits are in your own imagination.

I don't approach a song with the attitude of "I can't do this like so-and-so because I don't have his such-and-such". I approach it with the attitude of "What can I do with this instrument that will sound good in this song?".

Disclaimer: I don't make my living as a performer. If I did, I might take a different approach. You should consider that before taking my advice too seriously.
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Post by Edward Meisse »

I still think Tony Prior's comment was really the strongest one by far and probably should have ended the thread. To paraphrase, the 10 string E9 tuning was developed over a period of decades by some of the best players ever to play the instrument. It is what it is for very good reasons. While it is fine to decide that something else is better suited to your way of doing things, to do so simply because you don't feel like learning how to work the E9 in its' current configuration seems like a bad idea.

It seems like a much better idea to me to use the current 10 string E9 tuning as a starting point and make any changes based on your own actual experience and not on a disinclination to learn how to do something as it sounded like in your earliest posts. And with that, like Tony apparently has, I'm going to vacate the thread.
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Post by Tony Prior »

Edward Meisse wrote:I still think Tony Prior's comment was really the strongest one by far and probably should have ended the thread.



Big Surprise..I agree! :lol:
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Post by Fred Glave »

Donny, you're absolutely correct. I guess I was trying to relate to Dale's comment how 5 strings were all it took to play. A good player can demonstrate what those other 5 strings can do in a very persuasive and impressive manner. Of course a good player can also make good music using just a couple of strings as well. b0b has shown us that an 8 string copedent can be very versatile.
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Post by Herb Steiner »

Picture, if you will, this scenario:

Someone with a limited vocabulary makes a statement such as "honestly, do we actually NEED that top row of letter keys on the QWERTY keyboard, you know... the Q row? I mean, it seems like almost all the words I use can be typed on the A and Z rows. "

Would we then be saying things like "well, it's true, a lot of words CAN be typed on the A and Z rows. Some great words HAVE been written by really smart guys on those two rows only... maybe you've got something there!" ?

Or would we be saying things like "no, you need to learn more words to see the usefulness of the rows you're avoiding." ?

Just wondering, is all...
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Post by b0b »

Fred Glave wrote:b0b has shown us that an 8 string copedent can be very versatile.
But I'm also acutely aware of its limitations! There are a lot of wonderful phrasings in the standard E9th that I can't even begin to play. It's like I'm playing a different instrument. :alien: That's why I never call it a "universal tuning". It's very far from that.

I'm fortunate to be able to play in bands that don't have high expectations. They are my friends, and they tolerate my eccentric approach because they like me (I think), not because I'm a great player (I'm not).
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Post by Tony Prior »

Herb Steiner wrote:Picture, if you will, this scenario:

Someone with a limited vocabulary makes a statement such as "honestly, do we actually NEED that top row of letter keys on the QWERTY keyboard, you know... the Q row? I mean, it seems like almost all the words I use can be typed on the A and Z rows. "

Would we then be saying things like "well, it's true, a lot of words CAN be typed on the A and Z rows. Some great words HAVE been written by really smart guys on those two rows only... maybe you've got something there!" ?

Or would we be saying things like "no, you need to learn more words to see the usefulness of the rows you're avoiding." ?

Just wondering, is all...


or

wow !!! I learned a new word !
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Post by Dave Mudgett »

Just to play devil's advocate, Herb - an average piece of English text would be missing about 52% of its letters if you eliminated just that single QWERTY row of letters. About 39 of the 75 letters (around 52%) in this sentence:
Would we then be saying things like "well, it's true, a lot of words CAN be typed on the A and Z rows.
including whole words, would be missing; and about 84 of the 140 letters (around 60%) in this statement:
"honestly, do we actually NEED that top row of letter keys on the QWERTY keyboard, you know... the Q row? I mean, it seems like almost all the words I use can be typed on the A and Z rows. "
would be missing. Here are those statements without QWERTY:
ld hn b sang hngs lk "ll, 's , a l f ds CAN b d n h A and Z .
and
hnsl, d acall ND ha f l ks n h kbad, kn h ? man, sms lk alms all h d s can b n h A and Z .
So I think one really does NEED the QWERTY row on a typewriter keyboard to type intelligible English. On the other hand, I don't think there's any real problem playing most any music on a 6-string guitar, lap steel, or pedal steel. Yes, it will be different than a 10- or 12-string pedal steel, but there is no lack of musical notes to be played.

I have absolutely no problem with anybody using any setup they please - just move to a diddley bow if you like. But the thread title not only extolls the 'rise of the 8-string' but also the 'fall of the 10-string' pedal steel guitar. The reasoning behind this conclusion is completely faulty, IMHO. In fact, I would bet that there is a helluva lot stronger trend towards 12-string pedal steels than 8-string pedal steels.

I also think that the reasoning given for eliminating the non-E-triadic strings (strings 1, 2, 7, 9), or the lower strings like string 10 - basically that they're too much trouble to bother with and the music will 'flow' better without them, or hardly ever used, respectively - is even more faulty. But truly - whatever floats your boat, just do it. But to come onto a board full of, literally, thousands of pedal steel players that almost all play pedal steels with 10-or-more strings making this type of case - well, whaddaya expect? :)
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Post by Donny Hinson »

I don't think we should dissuade anyone from learning on any kind of steel guitar. :x Of course there are chords and moves possible on a 10, 12, or 14 string guitar that you can't get on a 6 or 8 string job. :eek: But, is that the sole basis of what we do? Is it impossible to play good music without all that "extra stuff"

In essence, I get the feeling that what many in this thread are telling people is (paraphrased, of course) "Do what I do and use what I use...or you'll suck."

Is that about right? :aside:
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Post by Chris LeDrew »

Donny Hinson wrote: In essence, I get the feeling that what many in this thread are telling people is (paraphrased, of course) "Do what I do and use what I use...or you'll suck."

Is that about right? :aside:
My comments earlier in the thread were more along the lines of "Use what you want to use, but don't dismiss a tried and tested tuning that the greats of this instrument pioneered." There's a reason why it's called a "standard" tuning. If you want to break new ground, you need to learn how to play the instrument first. And a good place to start is by using some sort of standard tuning. If you don't know how it works, how can you dismiss its usefulness??

As many here have said, you can make music on 1 string. It makes no difference whatsoever how many strings anyone decides to use. What irks me is the erroneous notion that 20% of the E9 10-string tuning is useless and ill-conceived, and that people hardly ever use those strings anyway. There is nothing wrong with being a novice; we all once were. However, as a novice it's important to stay humble and listen to those with experience instead of assuming all kinds of things about this instrument before you actually learn how to play it.
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Post by Duane Reese »

The beauty of all this is that there doesn't need to be any consensus either way. When someone makes a proposition, such as omitting two of the ten strings, they can go down that path by themselves or with others, and no 10 or 12-string guys have anything to worry about. Some things are best not done as a group, and steel guitar conventions is one of those things, as this thread demonstrates.
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Post by Tony Prior »

Duane Reese wrote:The beauty of all this is that there doesn't need to be any consensus either way. When someone makes a proposition, such as omitting two of the ten strings, they can go down that path by themselves or with others, and no 10 or 12-string guys have anything to worry about. Some things are best not done as a group, and steel guitar conventions is one of those things, as this thread demonstrates.



True...but when the question is asked, suggesting that the "10 string crowd" doesn't actually use the full quota of strings..then the discussion enters door #2...discussion #1 left the building...
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Post by Duane Reese »

Alas, the inevitable... You have a stack of tree limbs, someone throws a match into it, and you know the rest.
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Post by Dave Van Allen »

mmmmmmmm... Barbecue!
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Post by Jack Bowman »

Pete Burak wrote:I have a Sierra 8-string with 5 pedals and 4 knee leevers.
It's an "S8U".
It's great fun to play!
I have used it on standard gigs and no one even noticed it was a different instrument from my 12 string steel that I usually play.
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My tuning is two stacks of G#-F#-E-B:
1=G#
2=F#
3=E
4=B
5=G#
6=F#
7=E
8=B

I lower string-4 from E to D# on a leever to get the missing D# as needed (also lowers string-7 E to D#, which puts me into B6th mode).
I raise string 8 from B to D on a leever to get the missing D as needed.

My 5 pedals are A-B-5-6-7.
LKL= E's>F's
LKV= B's>Bb
RKL= string8-B>D and string4-E>F#(my C-pedal when combined with A-pedal)
RKR= E's>Eb
I've followed this thread to here and have read a lot of opinions. We are all sold on our own setups. Plain and simple, whatever your are doing with your steel at this time is right for you!. Last time I ate venison it didnt know whether it was shot with a Winchester or a stevens, it tasted great!. Both guns get it done!. both have a single barrel......so If my 8 string can get me onto the bandstand and earn me a few bux and I get called back next time... I'm sitting Jake! Being a part of doing is a little bit more interesting than teaching others what I have HEARD and getting backed into a corner by an EXPERT.
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Sneaky Pete - a dead-end career with an 8-string?

Post by Eugene Cole »

Just a thought... The late/great Pete Kleinow played an 8-string PSG.

By the early 1970's the 10-string was pretty much the standard PSG. Did Pete get any Band work with his 8-string?

How much studio work did he get with only an 8-string PSG?

Do any of you want to try to survive on only as much work as Pete could get?

I can no more argue that 8-strings is enough than I can argue that 20 strings is too many.

Just a little illustrative irony to convey a concept....
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