Question about a Melbert lap steel

[Mark Suits]

Hi,

I recently purchased a Melbert 8 string. I am really liking this guitar. It has a real nice sound and plays easliy. I have about 5 lap steels and only one has as good of a sound as The Melbert.

I have been looking at 8 string double necks for several months. I played a Gibson double last week but there were a few problems with it.

My question is why would I purchase a used 30-50 year old double neck when I could purchase a brand new one for about the same. I am guessing that the older guitar will retain most of it's value down the road but with that you get all of the problems like tuners, pots, electronics, pick ups, etc. I am no technician so repairing those little and big problems is really a problem for me.

The Melbert is so nice I am leaning toward buying a new double from Bob even though I might not get my money out of it if I or my kids ever have to sell it (I'm getting older every day!) With the Melbert I would get my choice of setup, pick ups, wood etc.


I see many older lap steels sold every day and few newer ones. Any suggestions as to why I'd opt for a vintage instrument over a new one?
Thanks

[Iestyn Lewis]

Here's my guesses:

1. Rarity - as you said, you'll probably get your money back or more when you decide to sell it. They ain't makin' any more of the vintage ones.

2. Perceived mojo - whether you can tell or not in a blind listening test, that old Fender, Gibson or Ric has those magic words written on it.

3. Actual mojo - who's to say that 50 years of aging HASN'T imparted a different/better tone than a brand new instrument?

4. Attainability - you can still buy a vintage lap or console steel for reasonable money, as opposed to buying a Fender or Gibson electric from the same era. If you compare prices to what a small builder would have to ask for for a comparable instrument in order to make a living at it, the old instrument may well be less expensive.

5. Appearance - standardization and mass production (tuning pans!) mean you can't clone a Stringmaster as easily as you can clone a Strat. So if you want a Stringmaster - you pretty much need to buy a Stringmaster.

6. Off-forum sales of new guitars. I would not consider myself a manufacturer, but I've mostly made guitars to order for people who approached me directly, or sold them in other venues. I'm guessing builders of new guitars do the same, so you don't get a good picture of how many new steels are sold.

In favor of a new instrument are all the things you mentioned - trouble free electronics and tuners, and the ability to get exactly what you want.

[Mark Suits]

thank you for posting that.

Best
mark

[Jerome Hawkes]

go with the new steel and order it the way you want. its a win-win for you and the builder. i'd much rather support these guys than the vintage dealers buying this stuff from grandkids for 30¢ on the dollar.
the only real downside is often resale value, esp if you get way custom. i have loads of vintage stuff and a few commissioned pieces and i have been fortunate to bond with the new stuff, which is a gamble - you just dont often know until you get it if it makes the cut.
You always have to include possible resale in any financial decision, but you are just as likely to loose on a bad vintage deal as a good custom build.

[Thomas Temple]

I own two Melbert (6 & and both play and sound fantastic IMHO and who is to say that 20 years down the road they may not be "classics". Hate to say it but Bob is no sping chicken (sorry Bob) but sure can turn out a great guitar as you already know and you can have it exactly the way you want it.

[Robert Allen]

Tom, well at my age, I did get a little nervous after watching the movie Soylent Green but my wife assures me that as long as the store is still generating taxable income, the government has a purpose for us.

[Stephen Abruzzo]

Go for a NEW instrument so long as you can get it EXACTLY the way you want it......in terms of pick-ups, wood, etc.

What's the point of buying Vintage and then changing it around for various reasons......OR buying Vintage and being stuck with a pickup, design, coloring that isn't to your liking?

[Mark Suits]

I appreciate the replies.
Thinking new, now a new world opens, pick ups, tonewood, scale length. Whew!

[Paul Seager]

I enjoyed reading this thread for a couple of reasons. I use to play bass and in the 80/90's getting something unusual was really only possible through a custom-builder ... unusual is what I wanted and that's what I got. That instrument was built for me and even though I don't actively play bass anymore, I have no intention of selling it.

The thing about old Fenders, Ricks, etc. is that the designs are timeless. When you see one on stage it doesn't matter whether its a photo of Leon McC from 1950 or a recent shot of Cindy Cash$, the instrument looks right in place because Leo Fender and his peers had this nack of getting things about right and then leaving them. Of course they had no real influences, they were inventors!

My custom bass honestly looks out of place today, it is a child of its time. My Fender Jazz still looks as alluring as the first day I saw it.

So when you buy a vintage, you are often buying a classic design. A custom will always be of its time. That said, your available market in the future is pretty much going to be on this Forum so if you're getting encouragement here, you probably can't go wrong either way.

\ paul

[Bill Rickles]

Bob, I am closing this post. Will enter it in for sale index.
thanks,
Bill Rickles

[Jeff Mead]

When someone builds a steel that is as beautiful as a Fender Dual Professional or a Gibson Console Grande, I'll consider buying one. I don't mean a clone (unless it is considerably cheaper than a vintage one) but something that appeals to me.

So many modern steels look like pieces of modern Scandinavian furniture to me - nothing wrong with that but not to my taste.

When I can still buy a vintage steel in good working condition (even in the UK) for less than a modern one, it's a no brainer for me.

[David Goodale]

It's all about the pan style tuners.The best looking steels all seem to have them.

[Steve Ahola]

My question is why would I purchase a used 30-50 year old double neck when I could purchase a brand new one for about the same. I am guessing that the older guitar will retain most of it's value down the road but with that you get all of the problems like tuners, pots, electronics, pick ups, etc. I am no technician so repairing those little and big problems is really a problem for me.

I agree that some of the older lap steels are priced much higher than their value- especially if you buy them from a vintage guitar dealer- but I think that they often have qualities that you don't find in a new instrument.

For one thing the aged wood can have a tonal quality that you can't get from a new steel. As for pickups there are many vintage pickups that outshine most of the new ones, like the "strap-over" Supro pickups. You can find old Supro, Valco or Oahu steels with these pickups for well under $400 and double 6's with legs for as low as $700. (Jason Lollar came up with his version of the Supro pickup which works with your existing bridge for ~$275 which is $50 more than one of the Supros I bought on the forum here.)

Compared to vintage electric guitars the old lap and console steels don't really have that much to go wrong, being basically a wooden plank with strings and a pickup. If the pickup is working when you buy it I really doubt that you will have it fail on you. (The bad pickups I've run across have evidently been like that for years.)

Tuners can be a problem but once again if they are working properly when you get the steel they probably won't develop new problems other than having the plastic buttons fall apart but you can get replacement tuner buttons from Stew-Mac that are very inexpensive and easy to install.

Last but not least is the finish on vintage steels. That is one disadvantage with the old ones- the finish is probably going to be dinged up a little bit (or worse!) The good thing about that is that you won't feel so bad when you add a few dings yourself.

Enough on the vintage steels. For new ones I would break them up into two categories- imported ones mass produced in China and domestic ones which are essentially handmade. Most of the cheap imported steels I've bought require repairs or upgrades for me to consider them to be usable. The quality of the ones built domestically is usually much higher than the cheap imports but they can be very pricey depending on the maker.

I've found that the best deals are right here on the SGF forum whether you are buying a modern steel or a vintage steel. It is usually an instrument that the seller has been playing- unlike most of the sales on eBay- so it should be in working condition. (The sellers here will usually mention anything that needs to be done for it to be playable.)

For some examples on pricing, you can often find a vintage Gibson D-8 Console Grande for as low as $1200 while a new replica from a boutique builder can cost double that.

Steve Ahola

P.S. For whatever you are looking for check with Bob Allen of Allen-Melbert first. He builds his steels as ordered to your specifications for a reasonable price; they are all custom-made so there is no steep "custom shop" upcharge as is often the case. I didn't know that he builds 10 string steels when I bought a 1960 Valco Alkire E-Harp on eBay. Darn!

[Allen Wheeler]

I had Bob Allen (Melbert)build me a twin neck (6+8) about 18 months ago, we discussed type of wood, and pick up selection, and it was shipped out to me in its own custom case c/w steel legs in a very reasonable period of time.
I own a couple of vintage lap steels, and they are great instruments, but they don't deliver the sound I was looking for, and I didn't really want to risk damaging hard to replace instruments on stage.
Out here in Australia the availability of vintage instruments is limited, and the best bet was to look for a new instrument. After some research on this and other forums I took a punt with the Melbert steel, and I am very pleased with my purchase.
It SOUNDS great, PLAYS great, and everyone comments on its good looks on stage.
I also play saxophone, and there I only play vintage horns (Martin, Buescher, & King) because they do not make saxophones with the same quality metal and other materials today, and they do not SOUND as good as the vintage ones. With steel guitars this is not so much of an issue.
If we want to collect steel guitars for their intrinsic aestehtic values then buy up the vintage ones while they are still reasonable and enjoy them.
If we want to play steel guitar because we love the sound then try out a Melbert steel if you can.

[Jeff Mead]

If we want to collect steel guitars for their intrinsic aestehtic values then buy up the vintage ones while they are still reasonable and enjoy them.
If we want to play steel guitar because we love the sound then try out a Melbert steel if you can.

Are you implying that vintage steels are just for looking at and don't sound any good?

I'd put my 1950 Fender Dual Professional and 1953 Custom Triple up against ANY modern instrument for sound and playability or my 50's Gibson BR9 for that matter.

Why do you think so many vintage Fender and Gibson 6 string lap steels have been cannibalised for their pickups?

I'm not saying modern instruments can't sound great as well but please don't dismiss vintage guitars as museum pieces.

[Steve Ahola]

Are you implying that vintage steels are just for looking at and don't sound any good? I'd put my 1950 Fender Dual Professional and 1953 Custom Triple up against ANY modern instrument for sound and playability or my 50's Gibson BR9 for that matter.

Those are some really nice steels you mentioned- hard to get any better than that! However buying sight unseen (sound unheard?) on eBay there are some real dogs out there- either not designed very well to begin with or the pickup has deteriorated over age or some other problem.
Another point: many of the vintage lap steels on eBay have recently been discovered in an attic or garage or basement and probably haven't been played for decades. The sellers of those steels think "vintage! 1940's!" and figure that they must be as valuable as guitars of the same vintage.

I have had much better luck buying vintage steels on SGF than on eBay. One more thing about vintage lap steels- it seems like each particular steel has its own sound and character often depending on the current condition of the pickup. With new lap steels mass-produced in China all of the ones in a particular batch are going to sound basically the same (that is once the typical mistakes in wiring have been corrected. )

Steve Ahola

P.S. If you check out a lap or console steel player on stage there is a 99% chance that he is playing a really nice vintage instrument. (The other 1% might be playing something like a Clinesmith which is a boutique steel based on the vintage Bigsby steel from the 40's.)

[Allen Wheeler]

Jeff Mead asked "Are you implying that vintage steels are just for looking at and don't sound any good?"
[/b] The answer is NO which my full message made clear. The original question was in relation to making a selection between a new Melbert steel, and a vintage one. I decided to give some input because I own both.
I love the sound from the horseshoe pickups on my vintage steels, but if I want to get a real "crying" sound I will go for a recent West Coast 8 string with a George L pick up in it.
For stage work my twin neck Melbert is versatile and delivers all the sounds I am looking for. It is all about what delivers the sound and the playability, and Bob Allen excells with his modern product.
Vintage lap steels/consoles are still reasonably priced ( I certainly can only dream about vintage Telecasters etc)and most of us can afford to own at least one, and enjoy them.
But personal choice is just that, and there is no one model, make, tuning, vintage, string gauge, tonebar choice that will satisfy everyone - thankfully - the thought of a world with limited choice and no room for robust discussion or disagreement is too bland to consider.
Happy trails

[Steve Ahola]

One thing about the vintage/modern choice is that there are not a lot of vintage single neck 8 stringers for sale on eBay. I'd guess that 90+% of the non-pedal steels are 6 string, with a good portion of the 8 string models having 2, 3 or 4 necks. So while it can make a lot of sense to get a vintage 6 string steel instead of a new one you might not have that option for an 8 string.

Looking at new 8 string lap steels there is the high-end tier with prices from $2,000 to $2,500 or more- the Clinesmith is in that tier. There are other tiers between $1,200 and $2,000, between $800 and $1,200, and under $800.

The lowest price I have seen is the Morrell MJMP-8 which sells for under $300. It has a nice solid maple body but there is a design problem with the Kent Armstrong 7 string lipstick pickup- the outside strings are noticeably weaker than the middle ones. You can upgrade the pickup (someone here mentioned that the Fender Stringmaster pickup will fit in with little or no modifications to the control plate) but that will bring the price to over $400.

For not much more than the Morrell with the needed upgrades you can get a Melbert 8 string currently priced at $495 on Bob's site which comes with your choice of TrueTone, Lawrence or George L pickups. They are built like a tank and have a very resonant body that sustains for days. (You can check with him for discounts on blems, prototypes, etc.)

http://www.musonmt.com

The next step up would be the GeorgeBoards Stealth S-8 which is currently out of stock (I bought one in 2010 for ~$650.)

http://www.georgeboards.com/

(Not to leave out other lap steel makers- those are the 3 that I've dealt with myself.)

Steve Ahola