I don't think I've ever seen this covered.
What is the method for tuning C6th by harmonics, to get Just Intonation? I think I'm starting to get it, I might be missing part of it.
Also, what is the relationship between the two necks? Are the E's the same, or is the E on the C6th tuned to be the 3rd of an "A440" C note, which would make it flat of the front neck E?
Last question (for Dan Tyack and Bob Hoffnar), what harmonic do you use to tune that pesky middle D?
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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
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Harmonic Tuning of C6th?
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
Good questions b0bby.
I believe the answers depend in large part on what combinations of JI verses ET one uses. I say this because there are several instances where ET almost has to be (on the C6th neck). Yet there are a number of cases where JI seems to be pretty much standard. The following lists these and the answer to your E string question:
1. Pedals 4, 7 and 8 can be tuned pretty much dead on JI.
2. The knee lever that lowers the 3rd string from C to B can be tuned JI.
3. The knee lever that raises the 3rd string to C# can be JI.
4. The knee lever that lowers the 3rd string to Ab can be JI.
However;
5. Some strings on pedal 5 almost have to be ET or quite close to it.
6. Same for pedal 6.
7. Same for the knee lever that raises the 4th string to a Bb.
Or this is what I have found. IF one tries to tune the 5th string F# (pedal 5) to JI, the 9th chord (strings 2, 3 and 5) will not sound right.
By the same token, if one tunes the 6th string Eb (pedal 6) to JI, the 7th chord (strings 3, 4 and 6), will not sound right.
Also, if one does not tune the A to Bb close to ET, the string will not sound good when using pedal 6 playing strings 2, 3 and 4. In addtion, the C7th chord will not sound right.
I will give you a bit of trivia about the E string on the C6th neck on a D-10. I had the privilege of meeting the late Gene O'Neal in FtLauderdale Fla many many years ago when he was working with Judy Lynn. This was before Charlie Pride brought him on board and made him famous.
One night during intermission of Judy's show, I was beside Gene's brand new D-9 Sho-Bud and he was tuning the E string on the E9 neck. And how he was doing it blew me away. He did this AFTER He used a pitch pipe tuned to C to tune his C6th neck!
Yes you heard me it was a single C note pitch pipe. After he had gotten his C neck in tune, he took his bar and laid it in the trough between strings 2 and 3; with the square end of the bar directly in line with fret 4.
He then picked string 2 (an E note on the C neck) and tuned his E string on the E9th neck. At first I did not know why he was doing this. So I asked him. He told me, he got this from Buddy Emmons.
As we discussed it, I realized what was going on; and it completely shattterd what most players and I had done for years. IE, tuning both E notes on E9th and C6th in unison. It is interesting to note that Universal tunings prove this theory.
You already KNOW the reason. He was tuning the E on E9th ET, but his E note on C6th was JI. this meant he could NOT use the 2nd string note on C6 to tune the E note on E9th. He had to use the E note on the 3rd string (4th fret) instead.
That day shall live with me til my death. Because it was my FIRST revelation of the difference between JI and ET. It explained why I could not tune the F#'s on E9th to be in tune with the pedals up versus down. And sooo many things about the anamoly about our 12 note semi-tone system of music.
May God rest Gene's soul and bless you b0bbby and all they rest of you,
carl<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 27 January 2003 at 09:03 AM.]</p></FONT>
I believe the answers depend in large part on what combinations of JI verses ET one uses. I say this because there are several instances where ET almost has to be (on the C6th neck). Yet there are a number of cases where JI seems to be pretty much standard. The following lists these and the answer to your E string question:
1. Pedals 4, 7 and 8 can be tuned pretty much dead on JI.
2. The knee lever that lowers the 3rd string from C to B can be tuned JI.
3. The knee lever that raises the 3rd string to C# can be JI.
4. The knee lever that lowers the 3rd string to Ab can be JI.
However;
5. Some strings on pedal 5 almost have to be ET or quite close to it.
6. Same for pedal 6.
7. Same for the knee lever that raises the 4th string to a Bb.
Or this is what I have found. IF one tries to tune the 5th string F# (pedal 5) to JI, the 9th chord (strings 2, 3 and 5) will not sound right.
By the same token, if one tunes the 6th string Eb (pedal 6) to JI, the 7th chord (strings 3, 4 and 6), will not sound right.
Also, if one does not tune the A to Bb close to ET, the string will not sound good when using pedal 6 playing strings 2, 3 and 4. In addtion, the C7th chord will not sound right.
I will give you a bit of trivia about the E string on the C6th neck on a D-10. I had the privilege of meeting the late Gene O'Neal in FtLauderdale Fla many many years ago when he was working with Judy Lynn. This was before Charlie Pride brought him on board and made him famous.
One night during intermission of Judy's show, I was beside Gene's brand new D-9 Sho-Bud and he was tuning the E string on the E9 neck. And how he was doing it blew me away. He did this AFTER He used a pitch pipe tuned to C to tune his C6th neck!
Yes you heard me it was a single C note pitch pipe. After he had gotten his C neck in tune, he took his bar and laid it in the trough between strings 2 and 3; with the square end of the bar directly in line with fret 4.
He then picked string 2 (an E note on the C neck) and tuned his E string on the E9th neck. At first I did not know why he was doing this. So I asked him. He told me, he got this from Buddy Emmons.
As we discussed it, I realized what was going on; and it completely shattterd what most players and I had done for years. IE, tuning both E notes on E9th and C6th in unison. It is interesting to note that Universal tunings prove this theory.
You already KNOW the reason. He was tuning the E on E9th ET, but his E note on C6th was JI. this meant he could NOT use the 2nd string note on C6 to tune the E note on E9th. He had to use the E note on the 3rd string (4th fret) instead.
That day shall live with me til my death. Because it was my FIRST revelation of the difference between JI and ET. It explained why I could not tune the F#'s on E9th to be in tune with the pedals up versus down. And sooo many things about the anamoly about our 12 note semi-tone system of music.
May God rest Gene's soul and bless you b0bbby and all they rest of you,
carl<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by C Dixon on 27 January 2003 at 09:03 AM.]</p></FONT>
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Earnest Bovine
- Posts: 8318
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Los Angeles CA USA
If "using harmonics" means tuning your 5ths to be beatless (3:2 ratios), then you can't tune a D string to JI on C6. It's the same as trying to tune the F# string on E9.
You could use harmonics and count the beats like a piano tuner does, making each 5th a little narrower than 3:2, until you hear approximately the same beat rate between each 5th: F to C, C to G, G to D, D to A, and A to E. (Plus a couple more steps of tuning the pedals E to B, B to F#, and on the other end Bb to F, and Eb to Bb) I think it's a lot easier to use the electronic tuner to get the same result.
On C6 I tune the D strings straight up, and on E9 the F# straight up, so the average is close to the rest of the band.
You could use harmonics and count the beats like a piano tuner does, making each 5th a little narrower than 3:2, until you hear approximately the same beat rate between each 5th: F to C, C to G, G to D, D to A, and A to E. (Plus a couple more steps of tuning the pedals E to B, B to F#, and on the other end Bb to F, and Eb to Bb) I think it's a lot easier to use the electronic tuner to get the same result.
On C6 I tune the D strings straight up, and on E9 the F# straight up, so the average is close to the rest of the band.
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Bob Hoffnar
- Posts: 9244
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Austin, Tx
- Contact:
I tune the D strings to the G string. The D strings are not a problem at all for me. The A strings are the weirdest.
Charleton tunes his E strings on the C neck to the E strings on his E neck. It works great for him. It came out all messed up when I tried it though.
I get C note from somewhere and then tune the open strings by ear. Last time I looked at a tuner they were pretty close to straight up except the E and A notes were a hair flat.
I tune the pedals and levers by ear.
Bob<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 26 January 2003 at 05:15 PM.]</p></FONT>
Charleton tunes his E strings on the C neck to the E strings on his E neck. It works great for him. It came out all messed up when I tried it though.
I get C note from somewhere and then tune the open strings by ear. Last time I looked at a tuner they were pretty close to straight up except the E and A notes were a hair flat.
I tune the pedals and levers by ear.
Bob<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 26 January 2003 at 05:15 PM.]</p></FONT>
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Ricky Davis
- Posts: 10964
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Bertram, Texas USA
- Contact:
For the open strings..Get a C-440 note. Than C note open and harmonic 7th string or other C notes at 12th fret.
Than harmonic 3rd string at 7th fret and 5th string at 5th fret to get the 5th tone in tune to the root tone. Than to get the 3rd tone(E) string in tune....harmonic 2nd string at 7th fret and 5th string at 9th fret....and tune the rest of the unison notes at you did the lower C unison note.
Oh and Bobby; if you want that D in tune....as Bob described tuning it to the G note....and the harmonic I like to use for that(cause I'll put that D note in my C Hawaiian tuning sometimes)..harmonic your 5th string at the 7th fret and harmonic the(your) 7th string(D)note..at the 5th fret.
yeeee haaaa.
Oh and almost for got the "A" note..ha.
I harmonic the already intune 2nd string(E) note at the 12th fret and harmonic the "A" note(4th string) at the 7th fret.
As far as the pedals....well that is my secret and I'm not tellin'..ha
Ricky<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 26 January 2003 at 11:01 PM.]</p></FONT>
Than harmonic 3rd string at 7th fret and 5th string at 5th fret to get the 5th tone in tune to the root tone. Than to get the 3rd tone(E) string in tune....harmonic 2nd string at 7th fret and 5th string at 9th fret....and tune the rest of the unison notes at you did the lower C unison note.
Oh and Bobby; if you want that D in tune....as Bob described tuning it to the G note....and the harmonic I like to use for that(cause I'll put that D note in my C Hawaiian tuning sometimes)..harmonic your 5th string at the 7th fret and harmonic the(your) 7th string(D)note..at the 5th fret.
yeeee haaaa.
Oh and almost for got the "A" note..ha.
I harmonic the already intune 2nd string(E) note at the 12th fret and harmonic the "A" note(4th string) at the 7th fret.
As far as the pedals....well that is my secret and I'm not tellin'..ha
Ricky<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 26 January 2003 at 11:01 PM.]</p></FONT>
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John Bechtel
- Posts: 5103
- Joined: 1 Jul 2002 12:01 am
- Location: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
On 10str. E9 I tune the 4th. str. E to 440, or straight up, and likewise the 3rd. str. C on the C6 neck. If you are using a tune w/meter, I tune the basic E9 from 1 thru 10 as follows: F#=440, D#=436, G#=436, E=440, B=440, G#=436, F#=438, E=440, D=440, B=440. and C6 w/D or G 1st.=440, E=436, C=440, A=436, G=440, E=436, C=440, A=436, F=440, C=440. This will give you a very good starting point to tune the pedal and kl changes by tuning w/harmonics! Personally, I prefer to tune my basics w/harmonics also, after tuning my E and C to 440 or straight up. I actually took meter readings after tuning, which I could use to do the fine tuning of all the pedal and kl changes, but; that proceedure is rather time consuming although helpful for the beginner. If anyone wants numbers for their changes, you can E-Mail me, and I'll give you an address where to mail your changes, and I'll return the numbers to you at N/C. Please include postage! "Big John" http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels
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Chick Donner
- Posts: 707
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: North Ridgeville, OH USA
- Contact:
B0b, I don't know why it works (and Jeff Newman says it doesn't) but the way I tune those old Emmons D-12's of mine, C6th neck(s), using my handy dandy Korg DTR-1 tuner, is to tune the E's to 442, then ALL THE REST about 4 CPS HIGH (open - no pedals). The guitar is in tune; dunno why. I generally tune the pedals by ear, though Jeff Newman has a chart for it.