Sozo Cap burn in time?

Tim Greene · From: Athens Tennessee USA

I bought some sozo's for channel 1 of my fender twin.
Burn in time is 100 hours.Is that playing time or just with the amp turned on at idle.Tim

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

They do burn in just with the amp running with no audio passing thru them. The high voltage does much of the burning in, but still, there's nothing that truly burns in a capacitor like swinging audio signals thru them, so you can either play a lot of guitar or you can hook up an iPod and pump music thru the amp. The Sozo's are great cap's, and they're fine right out of the gate, but they do come to life after a few dozen hours of run time. 100 hours is plenty in my opinion.

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Tim Greene · From: Athens Tennessee USA

Thanks Brad Think I will try a dvd player on repeat for a couple nights and a cd with lots of good steel on it.If I used a modern country station I'm afraid break in time could take months. Very Happy

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

that's hilarious because I think that way too. I only break in speakers and cap's with music that I like and music that would be fitting for what I plan to use the gear for. I'll often break in steel gear with Jimmy Day music...

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Rich Hlaves · From: Wildomar, California, USA

Could someone explain the "break in", "time to open up" thing with some types/brands of caps.

Myself, I just can't hear it in a passive component.
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Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

It's pretty dramatic, sonically. In fact some audio cap's will sound almost unbearably bright, harsh, and glaring in the first few hours as they "self heal" under high voltage. Then eventually they take on their real character. Electrolytic cap's do this too when used in the audio path. Some cap's don't change a whole lot, and also higher voltage circuits seem to exaggerate the issue.

I'm not exactly sure what all is going on with regards to the molecular changes, polarizations, etc, but with audio film cap's under high voltage, there is quite a bit of self healing taking place, actual molecular short circuits thru the imperfections in the dielectric film where there may be a microscopic arcing and then a vaporization which leaves a condition of insulation and the cap becomes more stabilized. Also time spent at operating temperature will also help the plastics and foils and mechanical hysterises all settle down and come to "rest". With electrolytic cap's there's quite a bit of chemical adjustment with the liquid dielectric elements.

It's pretty dramatic to my ears, for example if I re-cap a Fender Princeton, it's gonna sound very crisp and zingy for the first dozen hours, then even the next 50 to 100 hours will exhibit a mellowing where the harshness subsides and the warmth and sweetness rise to the surface. I hear it all the time. Even opamps do this when new. They take time. Speakers obviously do this as well. That's why a brand new amp is really a bad example of itself.

Brad

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

OK, I understand that and have heard it happen, too. There's an overall initial break-in period for any new amp.

But what's happening when a well-used amp is noticeably brittle-sounding or sterile at the beginning of a session or gig.? Then, after an hour or so, you finally get the smoother, less harsh tone? I'm not talking a subtle change here and I hear it in both tube gear and, somewhat less noticeably, solid state gear. The situation is very frustrating for me because I need that smooth tone right from the start, not 45-60 minutes later. This holds doubly true in the studio where time is money and I need good tone right now.

Do others experience that?

Sure, I understand tubes have to warm up and that can't be expected to happen within minutes of powering up. So, I set up my amp first and turn it on before setting up my steel. It seems to help a little but not that much. There's still that break-in period.

So, what's happening? Do caps lose their charge after a few days of inactivity or so and then have to reform?

Thanks.

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

I believe that's largely a temperature issue. It seems to take most electronic devices 20 minutes or so to reach their thermally stable condition. I don't think it's as much "re-forming" as it is thermal, but there may be something to that as well.

I also run an audio mastering business, and I use Manley vacuum tube compression and EQ. I'll always wait about 20-30 minutes after powering those up because they just don't sound as good when cold. It seems that most audio electronics are like that with warm up. Power supplies take a while to stabilize and run cleanest, transistors and tubes reach their operating temperature throughout the device, digital clocking stabilizes when warm, resistors (especially carbon) sounds better when at the operating temperature...

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Michael Hummel · From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Speaker break-in I definitely buy. Tubes, okay. Capacitors I can sort of understand.

But op-amp manufacturers go to enormous lengths to make sure their semiconductor processes are bulletproof and fantastically stable (I was an engineer for two separate semiconductor companies for 23 years in total).

Sorry Brad, you have a deservedly envious reputation here, but I have trouble believing that op-amp characteristics change enough to be audible.

Mike
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Rich Hlaves · From: Wildomar, California, USA

I guess the only way to make myself a believer is to order up a bunch of Sozo caps and install them in my DR or tweed twin homebuild, tone and coupling positions.....then wait.

My tube stuff also seems to sound better once well warmed. My amps are plugged in and turned on when I arrive to set up and may warm for an hour before gig time.
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Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

I was unaware of the opamp thing too until I dove in deep and started rolling real high end audio opamps in my mastering studio's D/A converter output stage. There are miles and miles of audio freak forums that can attest to this thing that opamps do. I will say it's far more subtle than capacitors which I consider to be among the least subtle.

One of my products is a Jerry Garcia version of our SMS Classic. One of the things that is distinct to that design is the use of mil-spec tantalum cathode bypass capacitors. Cathode bypass cap's are major contributors to tone, and can really reveal this factor. Brand new, the tant's are almost unbearable, but after a few dozen hours of having voltage bias applied to them, they become much more smooth and silky and "audio" quality. The ELNA RFS (aka: Silmic II) audio grade electrolytics are among the top favorites in the audio world. These cap's exhibit a bloated mid-bass when new, but that settles down over time and they become more neutral sounding. Orange Drops have a distinct "glare" to them, especially under higher voltage. This glare mellows out over time as well.

The opamps change a little bit, but I'd say just a tiny fraction compared to capacitors. They're almost there when new, but many "ears" agree and observe this break-in period. And spec-wise, opamps are a funny thing. You can literally take a Texas Inst or an Analog Devices or other high-grade audio opamp with incredibly high slew rate and distortion spec's on the measure of .0002% THD, theoretically undetectable differences, yet when placed in a high performance audio application, the sonic results are obvious from one opamp to the next. Specs and measurements, for whatever reasons, are a poor estimation of musicality. When I rolled a dozen or more super high grade audio opamps, I was astounded at how different they sounded. Nobody's been able to explain why, but it's obvious even to the casual listener that these things all sound different.

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Dave Little · From: Atlanta

Found this little A/B comparison of Sozo and WIMA capacitors on you tube. I can hear a pretty substantial difference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_LVulk5MUg

Michael Hummel · From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Well, I was about to order an Earth Drive pedal, but now I'm not so sure...(just kidding! Smile

I envy people that can hear miniscule differences like that. I consider myself to have pretty good ears, and I'm sure I couldn't.

Like you said, the differences are so small, and the op-amps so close to the "ideal op-amp", the circuit response should be completely dependent on the network around the amplifier (and the source and load impedances).

Skeptical by training!
Mike
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Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

A lot of little things that don't make much difference can add up to a big difference when combined.
Then they will ask what kind of pick-ups you have. Ha!

Earth Drive rules!
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Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Michael, you make a good point, one that's been brought up before in that world of opamp comparisons. Engineers argue and support your point that if a circuit is designed around a certain opamp and it's particular specs, source/load impedances, etc., it's going to sound more similar to another opamp in the same type circuit designed for that particular opamp. When people "roll" opamps, they are shuffling various opamps into a circuit that was designed around just one in particular. There's merit there, but when you get into circuits where different opamps have nearly identical engineering spec's and both fit the circuit properly, and they sound different, that is where it gets interesting. And when these "perfect" opamps sound different 200 hours after first being fired up, that's also weird but real.

And really, for me, these differences are really way, way down in there. I master for a living and listen on a very high resolution critical monitoring system. I can't hear these difference very well on more basic systems or on my cheaper mix-monitors, but the audiophile/mastering rig reveals this stuff and makes it more noticeable. It really is quite often in the realm of absurdly obsessive tweaking. These differences are often not very noticeable thru lower-fi guitar rigs. But people do report clearly hearing the changes to a NV112 when they swap in the 5 or so Burr-Brown audio opamps. Some prefer it, some dont. But the spec's on the stock Peavey opamps compared to the Burr-Browns is a pretty radical jump from a cheap opamp to a high-performer so it makes sense that that would be an audible change.

One of my eye opening tone experiments was years ago when I had a '66 Deluxe Reverb and also a '68 Deluxe Reverb. Both were loaded with 716p orange drops in the signal path. They were matched electronically and sounded pretty much identical. Then I took the '66 and made most all of the signal path with Solen tinfol/polypropylene audio cap's. That amp became a much, much warmer, darker, meatier sounding amp compared to with the orange drops. Huge difference that was easy for anyone to hear. That whole spectrum of cumulative capacitor tones has proven to be a great place to explore when it comes to tailoring circuits that are friendly for pedal steel guitar. Since we're usually not generating a lot of harmonic distortion, this next level of tone and harmonic balance by choosing various cap's is a world of fun. You can tweak for depth/dimensionality, treble glare, snap, sparkle, bass-tightness, it's nuts, and it's made me nuts...

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Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

I couldn't resist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

The first five minutes are especially relevant to this discussion.

Rich Hlaves · From: Wildomar, California, USA

Very profound Paul. Thanks for the link.

Steering.....now I know what to call it.

And yes, I have tweeked the wrong knobs during a live performance or at a mix down and thought I've heard a difference only to discover I was mistaken BIG time.

I'm not saying steering is the issue with opamps or Sozo cap however I think those demonstration point out a lot more of these "sonic improvements" are in our heads.
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Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

As a live sound mix engineer in my past years, I can't tell you how many times I tricked the players on stage when they'd ask for more of their vocal in their (already loud) monitor and I'd reach for the knob and pretend to turn it. Then they'd say "perfect". I didn't change a thing, but their brain figured out how to hear what it wanted to hear.

Audio perception is very pliable and gooey. It's all about the attention. It magnifies what it's focused on. This factor plays well in the audiophile (aka: audiophool) realm.

But the capacitor thing is real.. Smile

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Tim Marcus · From: San Francisco, CA

I agree that the capacitor thing is real - they start out sounding awesome and over the course of 40 years degrade into crap. Replace them and boom! Sounds awesome again!

I am skeptical about Sozo capacitors. I think they are made in China even though they claim not to be. Maybe I am wrong - but I heard that in the rumor mill.

I really like Jupiter caps - I do not notice much difference in tone after years of operation. My first pedal steel amp, which I built over 2 years ago, sounds almost exactly the same as it did the first time I turned it on.

I think temperature and humidity in the room, and the shape of the room affects the tone about a hundred times more than how long the caps have taken to form. There is a lot of hi-fi language on that Sozo website, which makes me suspicious. Hi fi folks talk about $500 vibration proof wood knobs and ebony casters and special power cables... its mostly in between the headphones.

My guess is that 99% of us don't hear that well anyway - we've been playing out of 300W Peavey amps and Twin Reverbs for years. I can hear the difference between manufacturers, and between ceramic and mica, and between an orange drop and a Jupiter cap - but not the difference between a cap that has been used for 10 minutes and one that has been used for 10 hours.
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Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

How does the (complex) impedance of a capacitor change as it "warms up" or "breaks in"?
Is someone claiming that this pasive device (capacitor) has some properties that cannot be perfectly described by its impedance?

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Back in the 70s, I did research on complex-dielectric properties of various things. The work was not remotely related to electronic components, but we had the best equipment in the world for making these kinds of measurements. In off-hours, I would measure audio components just for the hell of it - capacitors especially. One thing you notice when you do this a lot is how complex impedance and other electrical properties evolve with time. No doubt some of this is environment-sensitive - temperature and so on. But there's a reason electrical engineers always design with tolerances in mind - if you design circuits that are overly sensitive to drift in circuit parameters, you will have problems. There is always drift - sometimes parameter values go back and forth, and sometimes parameters drift in a particular direction. One (not the only) point of applying feedback in circuits is to reduce sensitivity to circuit parameter drift.

As far as explanations about what might cause changes in complex impedance in capacitors - well, the bulk dielectric may be temperature sensitive, or may change long-term somewhat owing to long-term heat or charging effects. But my guess is that fairly rapid and larger changes would be more at the interfaces, via electrodeposition (e.g., on the plates) or other mechanism. It wouldn't surprise me that there is drift in op-amp parameters over time, but I've never studied it. Op-amps are certainly temperature-sensitive however.

My take is that the senses (e.g., ears, eyes, olfactory, etc.) have evolved to be able to detect differences that may not be readily apparent in even sophisticated measurement devices. Evolutionary survival often militates that one can detect minute changes in the state of something to be able to, for example, catch something or avoid getting caught. One often instrumentally measures raw magnitudes, and, e.g., phase differences might not be noticed unless you're specifically going for that. When I see, for example, audio spectral analysis results, they are often magnitude-only. But phase differences are critically important, and the ear detects these readily.

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

I agree with all of this. I'm certainly no expert on audio caps. I've seen electrolytics do some weird things in high power applications, so I can accept that time changes everything.

It is the testing methodology and subjective nature of listening tests that I have an issue with.

Can anyone explain what is going on in the 2 scope traces shown at the bottom of the page
http://www.sozoamplification.com/break_in.html

Back to Tim's original question, maybe we should ask the owner of Sozo?

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

I don't bother to claim I understand the reasons things sound the way they do. It makes for interesting speculation and conversation, but it really just comes down to picking what we think sounds best. I've always had a problem with people using instruments to show why one component would sound a certain way and if they can't see the differences with their measurement tools that help them understand why things would sound different, they claim it's bunk and often won't even bother to listen for themselves. They dismiss it on theory.

Literally, you can use the finest instrumentation and measure two different opamps that are absolutely dead flat not only in audio response, but way on up into RF, dead flat, similar slew rates, and with distortion spec's on the order of .00005% THD. You put two different opamps with these amazing spec's side by side, and humans can detect sonic differences, and it's not even subtle sometimes.

You can spec a 716p orange drop cap against a Jupiter against a V-Cap and with most measurement devices, the results would suggest that these things should sound exactly alike, but they don't, clearly don't, even to a non-audio person. People often underestimate the amazing abilities of the human senses to detect incredibly small things. And the methods of measuring components often fails to truly examine the incredibly complex nature of audio and musical signals/waveforms, the way components behave at different frequencies and amplitudes and with various voltage biases across them and the range of source and load impedances.

I'm not interested in Sozo's website or marketing, I just find that their cap's sound really good in certain applications. Even if they've contracted CDE in Taiwan to make them for them or whatever, that doesn't bother me. I only care about what I'm hearing and if it helps make pedal steel sound good.

BTW, my personal tube amps, mostly '60s Fenders are loaded with the Jupiter cap's that Tim mentioned. They're amazing cap's. But in a couple of my tube preamp designs when tested with solid state power or high power tube amps, they weren't the right choice, upper midrange harmonic energy was a bit too strong and aggressive. But with low to medium power tube combos, they're fantastic.

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Tim Marcus · From: San Francisco, CA

they are great sounding caps!

For me - using capacitors made in the US outweighs everything else.

Orange drop capacitors sound great - my tweed deluxe clone is full of them. But they are made in China so they're out as far as Milkman amps go.
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