Pedal 4 C6th neck?

Billy Poteet · Post by **Billy Poteet** » 23 Jan 2003 7:13 am

I was wondering what you guys use pedal 4 for. as long as I have been playing I've never seen much tab that even addresses this pedal. I know what it does just can't find much use for it. Should I switch it to something else? If so what?

Billy

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 23 Jan 2003 7:32 am

If you're short on knee levers you might raise one or both A's to Bb instead of B. That change is usually on a lever and you will have to use both feet to get all the useful combinations, but I like that change better than the straight Ma6 to Ma7 change. It gives you a C7 open, no (other) pedals, Fsus4 with the 6th pedal, Daug7 with P5, and lots of other stuff.

But, with all that said, Buddy Emmons still has that change (both A's to B) on his guitar and has as long as I can remember. There's GOTTA be a reason. I'm sure others will come up with some, but I offer this one alternative that I've found useful.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 23 Jan 2003 8:50 am

It's not heard a lot in commercial country stuff, but the change works real well in pop music. Curly Chalker sure used it a lot!

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 23 Jan 2003 9:41 am

You can sit and watch C6 player after player hour after hour, and rarely if EVER see them engage the C6 standard pedal four. This includes Buddy!

BUT they do engage it now and then. And when they do, like BE or Herby Wallace, et al, it gives a sound not possible with any other change.

One top player said in his seminar once, "it is the most useless pedal EVER put on a PSG!"

Maybe so, but the standard D-10 PSG is still shipped with it. I like the change a lot. I use it more than others probably. The reason for this is, I can't stand knowing there is a change I am not using. As a result I have found some changes that sound good to me.

So, if you have this change on your guitar, why don't you try using it more; and who knows what you might find?

May God richly bless you all,

carl

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 23 Jan 2003 9:52 am

I put the Bb's on there, and I like it a lot better - single sting stuff too.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 23 Jan 2003 9:53 am

After switching it to raise my 6th and 10th strings, I've gone back to raising the 'A's again after Denny Mathis showed me some great single-string stuff using the old change!

I have the 'A's to Bb raise in a 'knee'....

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 23 Jan 2003 9:57 am

No, it is not the most useless pedal on the steel guitar, although for a player who doesn't know how or when, or chooses not to use it in his style, it might be. I use it all the time. But then again, "...I'm old fashioned..."

I use pedal 4 much more than I use pedal 8, for example.

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Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 23 Jan 2003 10:30 am

It is interesting, though, that Buddy doesn't mention P4 in any of his 'tab'....

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 23 Jan 2003 10:41 am

Herb,

Could you describe some of the things you do with the pedal, or maybe some of the concepts of when and how you use it.

Thanks for your time .. Jeff

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 23 Jan 2003 11:21 am

Jeff, sure, be happy to.

First, there are several Bobby White/Hank Thompson style cliche's that use that pedal, either by itself or with pedal 5. By itself, it's a M7 lick; with pedal 5, it's a chord moving from a 9th to a 13th chord by moving the 5th tone (s. 4) up a whole step.

The whole-step raise also allows a half-step juxtaposition with s. 3, great for melodic passages where a half-step is needed, like between scalar steps 3 and 4, 5 and #5, 6 and 7b, or M7 and root. It's the only pedal/lever that allows us a contiguous half-step on different strings.

One example of how I use it melodically: I want to play a diatonic speed lick from the 6th up to the octave 6th tone and back down, like in Orange Blossom Special. It's analgous to using the mis-named chromatic (actually diatonic) strings on E9.

<pre>Key of Bb
1____________________________3__________
2________________________________3______
3________________________3______________
4_______________3---3##_________________
5______3b---3___________________________
6___3___________________________________

1______3_________________________________
2___3____________________________________
3__________3_____________________________
4______________3##---3___________________
5________________________3---3b__________
6_________________________________3______
</pre>

Also, it gives us a unison with s.3 lowered with a lever. When used pentatonically with s.6 as root, in a blues scale, it raises the scalar 4th tone to the 5th.

I use the pedal kinetically when just free improvising as well.

One more thing. This pedal does not replace the 1/2 tone lower on s.3, since that note there affords us a different set of melodic opportunities though it gives us the same note as p.4; neither does it replace the whole tone raise on s.4 with p.7, which has its own uses as well.

I'm sure I can think of other more specific things later, but this is what comes off the top of my head right now.

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 23 January 2003 at 11:22 AM.][This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 23 January 2003 at 11:23 AM.][This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 23 January 2003 at 11:30 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 23 Jan 2003 11:59 am

Herb,

Your wisdom is exceeding only by your being a gentleman. No way could I say more. You said it all friend, luv ya!

God bless you,

carl

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 23 Jan 2003 12:51 pm

One more thing I'd forgotten: a chromatic lick useful for something like "Flight Of the Bumblebee."

<pre>
2____________________________________________
3___13______13_______11______9______11_____13
4______13##____11##______9##___11##____13##__
5____________________________________________
</pre>

This lick must be played alternating fingers and blazing fast to sound correct. But moving the position up or down a fourth can give you the theme to "Bumblebee."

Carl... Thanks mucho, amigo. Any day that I can be complimented by gentlemen like you and Keith Hilton (on another thread) is a great day for me. Come to Texas for the Jamboree, "Big C"

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Jeff Evans · Post by **Jeff Evans** » 23 Jan 2003 4:46 pm

If you already have the Bb raise, would pedal four make any sense as a location to lower the A's to Ab? How about lowering one of the A's to Ab while keeping the B raise on the other?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 23 Jan 2003 5:09 pm

Jeff,

Here is my take on that. Lowering of the A to Ab is used with just about everything. So it is best I think to have it on LKL as BE has it. It can even split with Pedal 7 for a C9th chord very well.

If you check BE's C6 copedent, it pretty much says it all about placement of the knee levers. I can think of ONE more knee lever that is needed, and I would put in on LKV and raise the 6th string a half a tone.

Buddy does not have this, but to me it completes the standard C6 tuning to my way of thinking. IE:

LKL lowers 4 a half a tone.

LKV raises 6 a half a tone.

LKR raises 4 a half a tone.

RKL lowers 3 a half a tone.

RKR raises 3 and 7 a half a tone.

NOTE: If there is room, I would add a 2nd LKL and lower the 5th string a whole tone. This is a fantastic change and fits in great with jazz; when used probably with the correct grips.

Coupled with the standard pedals 5 thru 8, this C6 copedent would lack little IMO, especially if the first string was a D instead of the standard G note.

This of course is based on the fact that MOST PSG players use C6 for western swing and/or jamming.

God bless you all,

carl

Rex Thomas · Post by **Rex Thomas** » 23 Jan 2003 5:19 pm

I have pedal 4 on a LKL. Always have, always will. On my 1st D-10 back in '72, Duane Marrs not only introduced me to ped 4 on a knee but put a 1/2 stop on it to boot. Anymore I don't need a 1/2 stop to catch the Bb, but it is convenient.
Good stuff, Herb. Thanx for sharing.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 23 Jan 2003 6:02 pm

....(quote).. I use it all the time. But then again, "...I'm old fashioned..."

Herb, that makes at least two of us that use the #4 regularly!

www.genejones.com

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 23 Jan 2003 9:33 pm

Thanks Herb for those ideas.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 23 Jan 2003 10:19 pm

Herb pretty well explained lots of uses for it.

I , for one thing among others, like to get that George Shearing effect, like he gets with locked hands on piano......al

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 23 January 2003 at 10:22 PM.]

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 24 Jan 2003 6:00 am

Carl,
Where did you see BE's C6 pedal set-up? Last time I seen it the RKR was lowering the 3rd string on the back neck. I thought everybody had that change on there, it's one that comes standard with only five knees. I just took that pedal 4 change off mine this week. I have a double raise guitar and was out of holes because of the half tone and full tone raises on the 4th string so I use it to raise the 6th string a half tone. I probably won't use it any more there either.[This message was edited by Frank Parish on 24 January 2003 at 10:58 AM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 24 Jan 2003 6:27 am

Frank, Carl's description is correct.

Buddy has always had his C-B on LKR in every chart I've ever seen. Here's a link to his current setup:
http://www.buddyemmons.com/info.htm

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 24 Jan 2003 6:27 am

Frank,
It's listed here

As Mike Cass told me, RIGHT to RAISE, LEFT to LOWER -- 3rd string on rt knee -- 4th on left

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 24 January 2003 at 06:29 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 Jan 2003 10:37 am

I understand its use on the 4th string, and I do use it a fair amount there, but 8th string raise always feels awkward to me. When I want that note, I usually want it on the 7th string (C), and switching to the 8th string is a nuisance.

Does anyone lower their 7th string to B on that pedal instead of raising the 8th string?

Herb, what are your uses for the low A to B change?

I love this place!

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic, Line6 Variax (coming soon)

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 24 Jan 2003 11:12 am

OK,
That confirms Carls statement. Mine is backwards from BE's. It's been there ever since I started. Herb didn't you have a thread here a while back about using a pedal to give you something in the order of the E13 tuning or at least some variation of it?

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 24 Jan 2003 11:44 am

b0b
I use the 8th string raise in combination with p.5 for a blues/Chuck Berry rhythm vamp, such as

<pre>key of E
6____________________________________________
7____________________________2_____2_________
8_____2____2_____2##___2##___________________
9____________________________________________
10____2##__2##___2##___2##___2##___2##_______

6____________________________________________
7____________________________________________
8_____2##__2##____2____2_____2##___2##_______
9____________________________________________
10____2##__2##___2##___2##___2##___2##_______
</pre>

or this...

<pre>
6____________________________________________
7_______________________2____________________
8_________2_____2##____________2##_______2___
9____________________________________________
10____2##____2##____2##___2##______2##_______
</pre>

... played ad nauseum.

There are many variations of this rhythm pattern in blues and R&B music.

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 24 January 2003 at 11:48 AM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 24 Jan 2003 12:44 pm

Thanks, Herb - that's great! I hadn't thought of that - that WILL be useful

!

RR