Theory Questions

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 18 Jan 2003 7:30 am

Question for bobby?

Key of C

Three part harmony:

CEG

DFA

EGB

FAC

GBD

ACE

BDF << IF this is B diminished.....

Four part harmony:

CEGA

DFAC

EGBD

FACE

GBDF

ACEG

BDFA << What is this?

And another question?

Key of E

Bar at the 7th fret.

Picking strings 5, 6 and 9.

IF the bass determines the chord, is this an A6b5 chord?

love you friend,

carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 18 January 2003 at 07:33 AM.]

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 18 Jan 2003 8:17 am

In answer to the first question, that chord is Bmin7b5.

B,D,F=B diminished triad
B,D,F,Ab=B diminished 7

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 Jan 2003 8:29 am

BFDA is a Bm7b5, or a very rude acronym.

It's also a Dm6, strange as it seems.

The A note on the 9th string at the 7th fret is not a bass note. I think you'd probably want a B bass (for B7), but (and I think this is your point) if the bass player didn't want to play the B you could call the chord D#dim. An A bass at that point would be the 5th of the chord (which is flatted, of course). So the chord you describe is D#dim/A.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 Jan 2003 8:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Key of E

Bar at the 7th fret.

Picking strings 5, 6 and 9.

IF the bass determines the chord, is this an A6b5 chord?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>By that logic, the notes G, C, E would be a G6sus4.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 Jan 2003 8:40 am

BFDA - I got to thinking. The reason that Bm7b5 looks scary is purely semantics. We gave the mb5 chords a shortcut name ("diminished"), but for some odd reason when the 6th is added to it we call it a dim7th. This leaves us without a convenient name for a diminished chord with a "real" 7th.

Three posts in a row. What's the prize?

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 18 Jan 2003 9:13 am

but for some odd reason when the 6th is added to it we call it a dim7th.

Just some conjecture here. I imagine the naming conventions tooks place centuries ago. At that time, maybe it was decided that it would be called a diminished 7th because the DOMINANT 7th note was being diminished, on top of the already diminished 5th. The reason that the m7b5 seems oddly named I think is because it might not have been recognized as a commonly used 7th chord until the 20th century. I seem to recall that when the jazz guys were using it, they would use the notation of Dm6/B (B in the bass) to describe what they eventually called Bm7b5. The flat5 designation is consistent with how they thought since the b5 was such a cornerstone of jazz harmony. Again, don't take this as fact, merely speculation.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 18 Jan 2003 9:30 am

Bm7b5 (say "B minor seventh flat 5") is also called B half-diminished. This is one case where the pop, jazz, and academics ("classical") guys use the same word to mean the same thing.
A shortcut notation os a circle with a diagonal slash.
Half-diminished chords aren't new. They go back to Bach and before. Bm7b5 is the natural II chord in the key of A minor.

The classic academic harmony book is Walter Piston's "Harmony". Piston would say that in the key of C major, BDFA is a seventh chord with B as the root. That seems a strange way to look at it, but Piston also says this is a G9 with the root omitted (or root implied), which makes more sense to us pop music people.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 18 Jan 2003 10:02 am

I think they call it a diminished seventh because, when employing the diminished scale instead of the major scale over it, it is the 7th tone in the scale, not the sixth.
<pre>
Major scale
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
C D E F G A B C

Diminished scale:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
C D EbF F#G#A B C
</pre>
-John

DroopyPawn · Post by **DroopyPawn** » 18 Jan 2003 11:40 am

John Bon Jovi said (and I tend to agree).

"F*** the rules. If it sounds right, it is right."

Of course, I would have started his statment with a different word.

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Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 18 Jan 2003 12:44 pm

...."F*** the rules. If it sounds right, it is right."....

...Bon Jovi...I would have used a different word for emphasis, but tend fo agree with the concept.

www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 19 January 2003 at 04:48 AM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 18 Jan 2003 2:20 pm

Invaluable musical advice from a knowledgeable source. But, I'd really feel better if we could get Britney Spears to confirm that.

-John

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 18 Jan 2003 4:29 pm

Piston also says this is a G9 with the root omitted (or root implied), which makes more sense to us pop music people

This doesn't fly. The most common role of a Bm7b5 is to lead to a minor key center (A minor, as was previously pointed out). With a key center of C major, it would be very rare to find a Bm7b5. Calling it a G9 is misleading. G9 is an "extension" of a dominant 7th (same as 11th and 13th). Even though pop musicians might better relate to a Bm7b5 as a G9 without a root, in the end, it causes more confusion than clarification, IMO. I guess I don't agree with Piston. I find it puzzling that in a classic book on harmony, he would make such a seemingly simplistic throwaway statement.

Bill Fulbright · Post by **Bill Fulbright** » 18 Jan 2003 6:41 pm

I love this thread!!

I studied with Robert Ottman at NTSU in the early 70s.

I love this kind of debate!!! Guarantee you won't find too many who know Piston and Ottman on a regular guitar forum!!

I still think how the harmony is used / or perceived depends on the context.

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Bill Fulbright
Mullen D-10 8x7; Gibson ES-165; Peavey Vegas 400;
ICQ# 2251620 My Music Site

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 18 Jan 2003 8:44 pm

I guess I don't agree with Piston. I find it puzzling that in a classic book on harmony, he would make such a seemingly simplistic throwaway statement.

I suppose he is just trying to make some dense stuff more accessible to his audience. But you couldn't think of this as some sort of concept. Otherwise, a Dm7 is just a G11 with the root and 3rd omitted or implied. Or an Em7 is just a Cmaj9 with the root omitted or implied. Or an Am7 is just an Fmaj9 or D11 .... That's all I was getting it. That for the sake of making a slightly obscure chord accessible, it compromises the entire concept of what the major scale and diatonic chord forms mean. The forms have a purpose in setting up and resolving progressions/cadences and just because a vii chord (Bm7b5) is rarely found in the major key center does not mean that one should change one's point of view about it's use, i. e. make it a dominant 7th. That is the province of the V chord (G7) in the scale, and whatever extensions and alterations one wants to add to it. That's what I was getting at. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 18 January 2003 at 10:52 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 18 Jan 2003 9:27 pm

I don't want to get beat up here, but I've always thought of the seventh four note harmonized chord as a dominant 9th. The root isn't omitted, as it is in everybody's head

To summarize my possibly oversimplified way of thinking of "it":

I think the "naming of things" much as one would an Outline in writing.

Main Sections in an Outline are I,II,II,IV, Etc. Then the Subheadings as 1,2,3,4, then the points as a,b,c,d.

Well I look at songs I suppose as the A,B,C,D, etc main sections. The Chords as mostly for playing purposes as I,II,III,-VII # or b, and depending what the "Chord quality" of the measure or part measure, relate the notes or arpeggios to that chord, if somebody asks me what that chord or chord fragment represents.

The Sus4, I call a starting point for any measure of chord change I don't have the slightest idea of.

Haven't heard a thing about Sus chords.

Amazing because it is the Steel Player's Best Friend besides Reverb.

The biggest problems I've had is agreeing with guitar players not to play 7ths against 6ths, and leave major 7ths to the piano...

Also to agree to limit the use or have a "truce" on the Sus4.

Can anybody relate?

Then there's the I/IV/V Bo Diddly multi chordal I,IV, or V chord, as well as the V-IV-I that so many of us play at any given chord on the old ET stuff, and the bouncing I-IV-Is, not to mention how many different ways there are to sneak in the Nite Life tag...

Then theres the subtle II-V ("rose colored glasses") that seems to drive everybody nuts.

Yup. The Pedal Steel is a refuge for many things..

This whole string has given me plenty to think about on this 14 niter I'm pulling tomorrow.

Thanks.

-If you're better to your neighbors, you'll have better neighbors, dog-gone-it -ET-[This message was edited by Eric West on 18 January 2003 at 09:29 PM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 18 Jan 2003 10:07 pm

I think y'all need to be sentenced to at least a year as bass players.
Look, all this "this cluster of notes could represent this chord" stuff is fine for semantical debate, but the root is where it's at. Just my humble opinion.
This also speaks to the "why should I care" question raised earlier. I frankly wouldn't care if you chose to use a 7b9 chord or a ruptured 113th chord... the only thing that matters to the form and progression of the tune is the fact that it's a dominant chord. That's why you should care.
Not to say that harmonically florid chords don't serve a purpose or evoke a certain emotional response, but the root is still where it's at.
The only purpose in pointing out that one chord can resemble another, or be "spelled" the same way is for ease of getting to it with respect to grips, fingerings, etc. Again, just my humble opinion.
I can't sign off without directing a thought towards the "I don't need no fancy learnin'" crowd.
See that big lineup of guys waiting to cry and moan about "jazz musician snobbery preventing our instrument's acceptance" because they got thrown off some bandstand for not knowing what the heck they were doing? The line is long enough now, please don't make it longer.
-John
geez, I'm grumpy tonight. no gig.

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 19 Jan 2003 11:29 am

Right on, John Steele. As was stated early on in the thread, depends on the bass can be the answer to many questions. Unless otherwise specified, the chord root is going to be played on the thetic beat where it is introduced. The chord progression will always tell us what chord is being used.

Bill Fullbright; Piston, Ottman, and George Russell. Who next? Did you know a trumpet player at NTSU named Bud Yenne? Swell guy, great player.

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 19 Jan 2003 3:05 pm

I didn't read all of this thread, but I have a modest contribution.

A dim7 chord has 4 notes, all 3 half-tones apart. A b9 chord has 5 notes, and if the root is on the bottom, there are 4 half-tones between it and it's 3rd above it (first voicing). The other three intervals are 3 half-tones apart as in a dim. So if you are substituting a dim for a b9, it is rootless.

...or, something. Or, did someone already mention this?

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 19 Jan 2003 6:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So if you are substituting a dim for a b9, it is rootless.

...or, something. Or, did someone already mention this?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From the 10th post on the previous page

The diminished form is basically rootless, and the chromatic note provides the movement that normally is provided by the root of the dominant 7th

Bob G., why don't you read through the thread. There is probably some thoughts you could add to the goings-on but you have to read the stuff. It'll take 10-15 minutes. .. Jeff[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 19 January 2003 at 06:11 PM.]

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 20 Jan 2003 11:02 am

Learning theory on the pedal steel is tough. I recommend getting a cheapo keyboard, a piano teacher, and take some theory lessons. Keyboard is linear and easier to understand than steel.