Theory Questions

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 15 Jan 2003 5:15 am

I've been out of the loop for a while due to the holidays, but time to get back at it. The floor is open for music theory questions, and I'll try to respond as quickly as possible.

I've learned so much about PSG technique etc. from all of you on the Forum, that this is my way of trying to pay it back. Let me know how I can help.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 15 Jan 2003 9:10 am

1. Is it C6, or is it Aminor7th?

2. Is it Ab5, or is it B9th?

3. Is there any such thing as a 3 note diminished chord?

4. When we lower the E's on LKR (on most PSG's), does it become Eb or D#?

No need to respond, I was just having fun. I am in a terrific mood this morning. Praise God. I commend you for what you are doing. Good luck.

And may our precious Lord be with you,

carl

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 15 Jan 2003 9:37 am

Throwing coal on the fire to get this train moving:

1. Depends on the bass.

2. Depends on the bass.

3. A diminished chord is a triad. A diminished 7th has 4 notes. In the key of C, the Bdim chord contains the scale notes B, D, F. When you extend it to a Bdim7 you add the Ab note (bb7), which takes you beyond the C scale (and into the realm of jazz

).

4. D#, because the frame of reference is either the key of E or the key of B. Those keys are both expressed in sharps.

And I have another one:

When it it appropriate to use an A7b9 instead of a Bbdim7?

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 15 Jan 2003 10:12 am

When is it appropriate to use an A7b9 instead of a Bbdim7?

It's the same chord. A7b9 going to D would be stronger.

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 15 Jan 2003 2:25 pm

Depends on the Bass!
JE:-)>

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 15 Jan 2003 5:01 pm

Depends on the bass could be the correct answer to all the questions that come on here!

Here is a "quickie" bit of info concerning diminished chords. Their primary purpose is to function as 'tweeners, taking the chromatic note between roots. Here is an example.

C6/// Dmin7/// Emin7/A7/ Dmin7/G7/ C6

This could be done using dimished chords as follows.

C6/C#dim7/ Dmin7/D#dim7/ Emin7/A7/ Dmin7/C7 C6

Now we have a chord change every two beats, and a nice chromatic line from C to E.

The scale that is used is the Diminished scale, which alternates whole steps and half steps. C#dim scale is: C#,D#,E,F#,G,A,Bb,C,C#. (Notice that there are nine notes to the octave rather that then normal eight.)

There is an easy way to remember the scale structure. The tensions are always a whole step above the chord tones. (Notice that the tensions D#,F#,A,C spell a D#dim7 chord).

Larry Miller · Post by **Larry Miller** » 15 Jan 2003 5:24 pm

I've found that a B# is really a C.

Tom Hodgin · Post by **Tom Hodgin** » 15 Jan 2003 5:37 pm

YAAAAAWN,,,,YAAAWNNNN..somebody get the lights please..................zzzzzzzzzzz

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 15 Jan 2003 7:47 pm

Very cool, Mike
Sounds like an Eldon Shamblin rhythm guitar part with Bob Wills.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 15 Jan 2003 8:00 pm

diminished chords. Their primary purpose is to function as 'tweeners, taking the chromatic note between roots

You could also say that their primary purpose is to resolve to the minor7 by acting as a dominant 7th chord, albeit without a root. The progression could be written as

C6/A7b9/Dm7/B7b9/Em (or without the altered notes, as C6/A7/Dm7/B7). The diminished form is basically rootless, and the chromatic note provides the movement that normally is provided by the root of the dominant 7th.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 15 January 2003 at 10:06 PM.]

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 16 Jan 2003 8:33 am

TRIVIA:

in EARLY music ....

The note "H" was the nomenclature for what we know today as...B (natural).

Bb was known in those days as just "B"...

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Tim Harr - Carter D-10 8 & 9 - Troy Cook Jr Band ~ Stardust Nashville Recording Artist

Bill Fulbright · Post by **Bill Fulbright** » 16 Jan 2003 8:39 am

Yup. The Bass note or root note determines the sound and notation. Now when you have a weak root note in the bass such as a 3rd or 5th, it is tougher to tell.

But my rule is follow the bass and add the colors on top.

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Bill Fulbright
Mullen D-10 8x7; Gibson ES-165; Peavey Vegas 400;
ICQ# 2251620 My Music Site

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 16 Jan 2003 10:13 am

EEEEEEWWWWWWWEEEEEEEEE!!!

Do I ever want to jump in here. But My precious Savior's little voice in me, (and past experience) says, "Don't you dare do it carl!"

So, I will be "the better part of valor" and say, have a G'day mates,

carl

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 16 Jan 2003 12:05 pm

Hmm...

The wife just brought the laptop out to the tree I'm chained to working on some ragas..

The key to what you "call" a chord is directly and only what it is functioning as.

You can play an A minor chord against a C chord when it's a I Chord, and it IS a C6 no matter WHAT the root, or bass note is. Think arpeggio. Each note is related directly to the theoretical "numbered chord" part of the passage. I-VIImaj-min 6 7 9 13 6 add 9 9b5 etc. etc. I suppose pure aug and dim are more "free" in their identification. Thank God.

Chords can also be notated as say D/F#bass.

Function and Usage.

Is IS.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 16 Jan 2003 9:34 pm

The key to what you "call" a chord is directly and only what it is functioning as.

Ok, I'll bite. Tell me how you can tell how a chord is "functioning" if you don't know the root/tonic/bass of the chord? Please provide an example. .. Jeff

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 16 Jan 2003 10:12 pm

OK, here are my questions...

Why should I care what I call a chord?
Will analyzing harmony really help me play better?

I ask because I started playing a lot better jazz after I stopped worrying about that stuff.......

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www.tyack.com

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 16 Jan 2003 10:33 pm

Don, if I'm playing rhythm guitar and I see a iim7b5 on the chart, and if I play a iim7, I'm going get some looks.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 16 Jan 2003 10:35 pm

Dan, I hate to labour a forementioned point, but only if you want to communicate with the bass player.
Bass players are very powerful people. We should be nice to them.

-John
p.s. I recently saw a piece of steel tab in the key of C. The V chord was identified as "B diminished". This drives me nuts. It is not bloody B diminished... It's G7b9. How do you think it's gonna sound when the bass player plays B for the V chord ?!? Don't subscribe to the Allen Ginsberg Brain-Dead Beatnick theory of playing jazz (close your eyes and pray for Karma). That's baloney. Knowledge is power.
-J[This message was edited by John Steele on 16 January 2003 at 10:41 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 16 Jan 2003 10:55 pm

Well, just off the top of my head, to begin with, no matter what notes, or group of notes you play in the first measure of Steel Guitar Rag ( in C), picture a major triad being played below ( or above) it all by a chordal instrument. Any note, chord, tri-tone, or chord fragment would have to be noted as whatever relation to the C note ( or not, depending on the desire for complexity).

If this is confusing, it is because there is a burning desire by somebody to demand something more complex. Probably a mechanism of limitation of actual practice time. I'm as guilty as the next guy.

(Teetering on the precipice of a pit of dangerously educated vipers with balance eroded by too many years in beer joints.. he offered innocently : )

How indeed could you play a "Root Omitted" chord, and still call it what it is? If what you are suggesting IS indeed true, then there IS no such thing as a "Root Omitted" chord. Your "Root/Fifth" chord could never be considered major OR minor.

This is fun.

Then, when you wrap the old thumb around the neck of the trusty old Tele while "everybody else" is playing a D Chord, and Grab that old F#, all of a sudden you're playing an F# min#5?

No. You're playing a D major chord. (One of the oldest chords)

Play single note run throughout the "tonic" measure ( or part of the measure) and you play single notes, "thought of" by their numerical value "to the chord". cdefgab is the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ( If you wish.) Play them in a harmonized scale of triads, and of course they "can be" thought of as 1 2min 3min 4maj 5maj 6 min 7dim. Whatever the chord is during a "tonic" measure is used as a substitution, or more simply an extended chord fragment *Of The Tonic*.

Oh, you can INDEED think of or express it as anything you wish.

Take the tri tone sequence in the "bridge" section of Troubador Stomp. Its a measure of C with a Gb major triad "substituted" for the tonic. You'll note that the "rest of the band" is playing a C chord. I guess you'd call it a C7 b9 b5 with the root ommitted. ( It ( the Root) is actually supplied by the Ukulele, keyboard, bassoon or bass) at that point rather than a Gb major triad. If I had to relate it, I think that is the way I'd chose to do it, It's the type of thing I discuss at "tear down" time, if the conversation ever turns from sex.

I guess what I'm saying is that about halfway through my second year of music composition, theory, arranging (at a "top of the line" community college), I decided that it was more worthwhile to think of the little fly specs all wadded up in the "One" section of the song as parts of it, rather than each chord standing as a self sufficient entity on its'own. It would be one thing if you could get the French Horn section or the clarinet section to "hold off" but not very practical.

Again. When you wrap your thumb around the neck of the Old Tele......

Complexity might have been one of the Seven Deadly Sins, had any of the others not worked out so well..

[This message was edited by Eric West on 16 January 2003 at 11:12 PM.]

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 17 Jan 2003 8:51 am

John,

I agree that the bass player should care (after all, it's not a chord until the bass player plays), but I'm not sure why I should care (for instance whether it's an A7b9 instead of a Bbdim7).

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www.tyack.com

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 17 Jan 2003 8:53 am

while "everybody else" is playing a D Chord, and Grab that old F#, all of a sudden you're playing an F# min#5?

Actually, if the preceding chord was an F#m, and everyone played a D while the bass player continued to play F#, there is a very good chance that I would expect an F#m6 to follow (think of that chord run in "Goldfinger"), meaning that the second chord whould indeed have been an F#m(#5).

John Sluszny · Post by **John Sluszny** » 17 Jan 2003 10:00 am

To Carl Dixon & Bobby Lee.
...and when you raise your E's with your LKL (on most PSG's),it becomes an E# (not a F).And the second open string should normally be a D# (not an Eb).

JS

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 17 Jan 2003 10:49 am

E#...F...Gbb?, why does life have to be so confusing?

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 17 January 2003 at 10:51 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 17 Jan 2003 11:03 am

AND it is NOT "(not a F)"

Rather; it IS "(not an F)"

Have fun, and may the good Lord take a lackin to ya!

carl

John Sluszny · Post by **John Sluszny** » 17 Jan 2003 12:53 pm