Cabinet Drop

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 24 Dec 2002 10:48 pm

Sorry Donny; I guess I got confused...because I have never seen a guitar that other adjacent string(s) actually raised if you raise a certain string on a Knee Lever.
Have you seen a guitar that did this???
....anyway; point well taken....and there is just all kinds of weird stuff going on with these Pedal Steels we choose to play....."a little bit of everything"....but I'm staying with my opinion of the main Culprit.
Ricky

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 25 Dec 2002 9:03 am

What's the purpose of that cross bar (connecting front apron to rear apron) on Emmons P-P's?
Mine has one on it, some D10 P-P's I've seen have 2.

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 25 Dec 2002 9:10 am

Pete. The cross brace is to help support the front and rear aprons from warping and to keep proper distance between them so the cross shafts fit properly.
Jerry

Leon Roberts · Post by **Leon Roberts** » 25 Dec 2002 11:18 am

I don’t have the expertise of the previous posters, but I will share what little I know on the subject. Bruce mentioned the drop on a plain 6th string when using a 6 minor chord with the “A” pedal. This caused me much anguish until I watched John Hughey set his guitar up in Hawkinsville Georgia. I noticed an extra pull on his 3rd pedal. “This would be the “A: pedal on the “Day setup”. I asked John what the purpose of the extra pull was and he graciously told me it was to recover cabinet drop on the 6th string when the “A: pedal was used. I can’t thank John enough for sharing this bit of information with me. This compensator was installed on both my Sho-Buds. Although the plain 6th is a pain tuning wise, it eliminated the drop on the 6 minor chord.

The only problem I’ve encountered on cabinet raise is when the “E’s” are lowered and the 6th string is lowered a whole tone for the major chord 2 frets below the pedal position. While using this position, my 5th string would go sharp slightly. I figured what’s good for the goose. I put a pull to slightly lower the 5th string on the same knee lever that lowers the 6th. Actually it returns the 5th to where it was previously.
I have often wondered if there are any more little tricks the “greats” use that we mortals are unaware of.

Merry Christmas everyone, Leon

Del Mullen · Post by **Del Mullen** » 27 Dec 2002 6:06 pm

I have to build these things. Would you care to hear what my experiance is with cabnet drop? I probably am asking for trouble but that is ok I'll just have to deal with it.

Del Mullen
Mullen Guitars

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 27 Dec 2002 6:28 pm

Del, I would. As regards your asking for trouble, you won't get any from me. Excuse my Spaakian ways, but I fail to understand why some get emotional over an engineering question.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 28 Dec 2002 9:41 am

Del, I would love to hear your thoughts on the subject!

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 28 Dec 2002 9:43 am

Me too!

Del Mullen · Post by **Del Mullen** » 28 Dec 2002 4:28 pm

To begin with cabinet drop is real. That is not the only thing than can contribute to having the E string detuning when you least want it to. If the changer is not supported enough it can cause this problem as much as the cabinet itself and as well as the tuning head. Remember any time you raise strings with a pedal or even a knee lever it puts extra strain on everything involved that has anything to do with holding the strings in tune. The cabinet is the biggest trouble maker but you also need to consider do you play with a heavy foot or not. The more pressure you apply on a pedal the more strain is forced on the cabinet. Personally I don't consider it to be problem at all in my playing. Electronic tuners are a bigger problem than the guitar when you sit at your guitar and push a pedal and watch the meter move it looks bad. I haven't encountered this problem on the guitars we build and I don't mean this to sound like a commercial but I have had a couple exceptions. If a guitar has no mare than 3 to 4 cents drop you will never hear it when you are playing. You can easily cure the problem if it bugs you enough by adding a compensator rod on the B pedal to raise the E string slightly. Building guitars I have had the opportunity to meet and listen to a lot of players and this is how I find out if there is a problem. It doesn’t matter what kind a of equipment or machine you have weather it be a guitar or what you can find something wrong if you want to dig at it enough. Just like this computer I am using the key board keeps changing that is why I keep making mistakes in my typing. "I had to add some humor here." If you listen to Herby Wallace play and watch what he is doing with pedals you can see how much effect it has on the whole thing because he is so smooth with it. Just one more thing here. For the most part this cabinet drop issue is something that is just one of the annoying things about pedal guitars that we have to except. What I mean by this is I also play 6 string guitar and have never found anyone that could play another persons guitar and find it to be in tune. I don’t know if this makes any sense or not but maybe it will help some how. Throw that stupid tuner away and most of your problems will go away. By for now I am going to go watch TV.

Del Mullen
Mullen Guitar Co., Inc.

RON PRESTON · Post by **RON PRESTON** » 29 Dec 2002 5:07 am

First off, I would like to ask Del a question. When is the last time you have talked to Ray and Tanya Mullins in Ogallalla, Nebraska, and, are they still playing music, and I suppose they are still together. I played for your Nephew, Ray, in 1985-86. Great people, they are. Tell them I said Hello for me....
Now, Jeff Peterson knows his stuff for sure, I just wanted to say that in 1999,When I was at "Emmons", Jack Strayhorn told me that Ron Sr. had a repair on an old P/P..the problem was that the guitar would go SHARP when the pedals were ingaged...Ron slowly moved these pedals up and down, and watched what was happining. The guitar was upside down on the repair bench. This is where Ron Sr. got the idea of the "counterforce" pushing aginst the changer "KingPin" as some call it.
This pup can be tuned to cause the strings to go SHARP if you turn the knurled set screws underneath too far. I tune the 4th string, E, to 440, then depress the 1st pedal, and watch the E. If it "DROPS", then I tune with the knurled screw accordingly. If it goes "SHARP", I back off the set screw. Then the 2nd pedal I will tune as well, then both A and B pedals together. All this was invented by a man who was a genius, He saw how a repair could be useful in thinking out the soultion in a problem we all at one time or another have had, called Cabniet/Drop

Bruce Bouton · Post by **Bruce Bouton** » 30 Dec 2002 6:36 pm

I must say I have never seen a Mullen with any noticable cabinet drop. Del makes a very solid, well built guitar.
BB

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 30 Dec 2002 9:27 pm

I have to agree Bruce. I just sold one and I have another for sale here on the forum. Less than one cent drop on the E's with the A&B pedals down.

Del Mullen · Post by **Del Mullen** » 17 Jan 2003 7:33 pm

I never finished what I started with this cabinet drop thing. I still think it is an issue that has been more of a nit picky issue than an actual problem. As I mentioned before I have not had a real problem with it. If you want to sit down to you guitar with a electronic tuner and push down a pedal until the meter moves it can certainly be done. Try winding up say the forth string with a crescent wrench and see if it will ever break I’ll bet it will. I recently pulled out some of my old LP’s of players like Jimmy Day, Buddy Charleton, Lloyd Green, Buddy Emmons, Tom Brumley, Herby Wallace, Hal Rugg, Weldon Myrick, Curly Chalker and Doug Jernigan. To me it can’t get any better than that and if they had a problem with cabinet drop it didn’t seem to slow these guys down any. There were all kinds of guitars played ZB, Emmons, Sho-Bud, MSA and probably a lot more. This was back there when steel guitar was the best I have ever heard. My opinion for what it’s worth is ignore it and just play and I’ll bet you will enjoy your guitar a whole lot better.

Catch you all later

Del Mullen

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C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 17 Jan 2003 8:49 pm

From the lips of the late Ron Lashley to me,

"There is MORE than one reason for cabinet drop. I KNOW what is causing it. But the "counterforce option" on the Legrande III" cures it! So who cares what is causing it?"

So, I took a tuner, sat down to the first LeGrande III I had ever seen; and tried my best to see if I could defeat the counterforce option. I failed. In a word, the needle did NOT move! NO matter how hard I pressed on the pedals, NON pulled strings did NOT move on the meter.

I DID notice cabinet raise on the 6th string when the E's were lowered. I asked Emmons about this (NOT Ron). I got an answer but it fell into the hmmmmmmmmmm, category, so I didn't pursue it further.

Cabinet drop, regardless of what is causing it, does NOT bother some players. Dell is correct on this. However, it DOES bother others. I simply cannot imagine BE buying two LeGrande III's; IF cabinet drop was not a problem to him, since the LeGrande II's are identical except for the anti cabinet drop option. Plus the option is approx 300 dollars per neck! This is no cheap option.

So I must conclude that its reason for being MUST have been because more than just a few players were bothered by it. IMO

God bless you all,

carl

Reggie Duncan · Post by **Reggie Duncan** » 18 Jan 2003 7:18 am

But, Del, if our guitars were perfect, we wouldn't have anything to argue about, except what color it is!

It is nice to hear comments from a Master Builder! Thanks!

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 18 Jan 2003 7:47 am

Though cabinent drop is an issue, I have never had a problem with any of my guitars I owned(Buds, ZB, MSA, Emmons). I have to agree with Del that looking back on all the classic players with their own classic sound, that drop doesn't sound too bad if there is any. And I'm also in agreement that nobody knew what drop was until tuners came along.

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1985 Emmons push-pull, Session 500, Nashville400, 65 re-issue Fender Twin, Fender Tele

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 18 Jan 2003 8:22 am

There are as many ways for the instrument to "detune" as there are different materials and structures used to build them, .. and then there is the playing technique. Where one instrument might exhibit pitch shift from the changer, another might show it in the stops, another in body flex, etc..

Here are some experiments to try on YOUR instrument to indicate possible causes:

Place some of your weight (or hang a weight) on the center of the body and see if detuning takes place.

Place a weight on the center of the pedal board and check the effect.

If you can get at the changer axle, push down on the center, and check. Lift up on the center and check; Or push down on the center/ends of the changer top.

Place some weight on the nut/roller center
and/or ends and check.

If you have a keyless, place a weight (push) on the section that holds the tuning adjustments (screws?) and check.

Hang weights off the center of your cross shafts and check.

All the above S/B done while activating your changes in the ways that have been deemed as problematical by the various posters on the "cabinet drop" subject.

My personal opinion is that "most" of the issues are academic as opposed to practical (with the exception of some few instruments). A few "beats" on open strings soon get lost in the inaccuracies of bar positioning, bar force, and other playing anomalies such as how hard you pick. With the tuner on, pick the strings in the direction you would while playing, but use various forces, ..notice the behavior of the tuner on the various strings.

Of more importance to me is the tuning stability of the instrument when exposed to thermal changes.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 18 Jan 2003 9:37 am

....the guitar that I had the most noticable cabinet drop on (read "out of tune") was my triple-neck, Custom non-pedal Fender. The problem did diminish considerably though as I gained experience and played more and learned to compensate with the bar!

The answer to the tuning problem seems to be the "ear". There is no pedal steel guitar today, because of it's mechanical characteristics, that will do all of that "for you".

The concept of hearing must be developed, and then all the tuning problems will disappear!
www.genejones.com