I beg to differ, Steve. I prefer my Twin, not because it has a "vintage" sound, but because it has a sweet, gutsy, warm sound.
Handwired amps with quality guts are gonna cost more than a factory amp. Period. Manufacturing costs are higher. Could Phil make a Little Walter cost less? Don't care. I paid for my Twin what I paid for any two of my other amps and it's worth it.
I'll assume Tim's amps or Phil's will represent an advance over the tone of the Twin.
It's not the technology, but the tone.
After all, almost any steel out there is made with 70s technology. The "advance" of the Zum hybrid looks like adding a layer of 60s tech to the 70s tech.
Price Of Pedal Steel Amps - What Do You Think?
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
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Johnny Thomasson
- Posts: 565
- Joined: 5 Jan 2007 1:04 pm
- Location: Texas, USA
A couple of references to "vintage" amps have been made in this thread. I own a '65 Twin Reverb with a D-130 which I happen to think sounds pretty dang good, so you'll not hear me dissing these old amps in any way. But... these were/are production run amps, mass produced in a factory, and passed through many sets of hands during the manufacturing process. I understand Leo Fender (when he was running the company) was pretty anal about maintaining rigid quality standards, but quality did diminish somewhat after CBS took over and implemented their "cost efficiencies". There's just no way any production run amp is going to stand toe to toe with the manufacturing standards of a company where the amp is hand built by the OCD guy (:)) who designed the thing. That applies to anything, not just amps. Most of these boutique amps are based on the old Fender designs, which are excellent; no question about that whatsoever.
I believe these builder's design tweaks to make these purpose built PSG amps, their use of the very best components available AND their anal-retentive attention to detail in manufacturing puts these modern boutique amps in a class above the very best vintage amps, or any production amp for that matter. JMHO. Now I don't think any of them are an order of magnitude better than my Twin, but I do think any of them would be a better steel amp. It's hard to quantify the increment of improvement into a dollar figure; it's a subjective thing that people have to decide for themselves. I just have a hard time believing that having more choices is a bad thing. The bottom line is, if you think all this boutique amp stuff is a bunch of hogwash, there ain't no law that says you have to buy one. But there are quite a few folks who think otherwise, and I happen to be one of them. I'd love to have one. I just love good amps.
The problem for me is this. Another poster mentioned not being able to try them out. Tim mentioned a network of customers who would gladly let you test drive his Milkman, and that's great. The thing for me is this... I've never been able (maybe it's just me) to try out an amp in a music store, bedroom, etc., and get an accurate read. Several years ago, I paid over $1300 for a high-end acoustic amp for fiddle that sounded like a million bucks in Guitar Center. When I tried it at a gig, big letdown. Fortunately I had a 30 day trial period, which in this case I took advantage of. Now... if I could borrow one to take out on the road for a real test drive, that might be different. I don't think I'd let someone I'd never met haul off my high-dollar amp to try out.
Notwithstanding, I for one am intrigued by some of the boutique amp offerings. I don't make a lot of dough playing anymore and that makes any high dollar purchase harder for me to justify these days, but I'm still intrigued by some of these amps none the less. I've been studying up on the current offerings for about the past year, and if I were to hit the pick six today, the first thing I'd do is order a Milkman. LW would be second in line, but a distant second. And, they don't look quite as cool on stage.
As to the OP's original question, I don't understand all the criticism on the price of these amps at all. They're definitely not for everybody, and I think the builders would probably be the first to tell you that. If you don't think they're worth the money, then don't buy one. Pretty simple. I can just about guarantee you the guys who build these amps aren't getting rich. And I think that's too bad... they ought to be able to make good money for what they do. Caint no dummy build something like this.
Now having said all this, one can fall in a real trap trying to buy tone. I've fallen in that trap myself lots of times. Spending more time on the pac seat can go a long, long way on improving your tone, and all that costs you is your time. But as another poster aptly pointed out, there are some things that make you want to spend more time on the pac seat, so there you go. A two-fer.
JMHO, as always.
I believe these builder's design tweaks to make these purpose built PSG amps, their use of the very best components available AND their anal-retentive attention to detail in manufacturing puts these modern boutique amps in a class above the very best vintage amps, or any production amp for that matter. JMHO. Now I don't think any of them are an order of magnitude better than my Twin, but I do think any of them would be a better steel amp. It's hard to quantify the increment of improvement into a dollar figure; it's a subjective thing that people have to decide for themselves. I just have a hard time believing that having more choices is a bad thing. The bottom line is, if you think all this boutique amp stuff is a bunch of hogwash, there ain't no law that says you have to buy one. But there are quite a few folks who think otherwise, and I happen to be one of them. I'd love to have one. I just love good amps.
The problem for me is this. Another poster mentioned not being able to try them out. Tim mentioned a network of customers who would gladly let you test drive his Milkman, and that's great. The thing for me is this... I've never been able (maybe it's just me) to try out an amp in a music store, bedroom, etc., and get an accurate read. Several years ago, I paid over $1300 for a high-end acoustic amp for fiddle that sounded like a million bucks in Guitar Center. When I tried it at a gig, big letdown. Fortunately I had a 30 day trial period, which in this case I took advantage of. Now... if I could borrow one to take out on the road for a real test drive, that might be different. I don't think I'd let someone I'd never met haul off my high-dollar amp to try out.
Notwithstanding, I for one am intrigued by some of the boutique amp offerings. I don't make a lot of dough playing anymore and that makes any high dollar purchase harder for me to justify these days, but I'm still intrigued by some of these amps none the less. I've been studying up on the current offerings for about the past year, and if I were to hit the pick six today, the first thing I'd do is order a Milkman. LW would be second in line, but a distant second. And, they don't look quite as cool on stage.
As to the OP's original question, I don't understand all the criticism on the price of these amps at all. They're definitely not for everybody, and I think the builders would probably be the first to tell you that. If you don't think they're worth the money, then don't buy one. Pretty simple. I can just about guarantee you the guys who build these amps aren't getting rich. And I think that's too bad... they ought to be able to make good money for what they do. Caint no dummy build something like this.
Now having said all this, one can fall in a real trap trying to buy tone. I've fallen in that trap myself lots of times. Spending more time on the pac seat can go a long, long way on improving your tone, and all that costs you is your time. But as another poster aptly pointed out, there are some things that make you want to spend more time on the pac seat, so there you go. A two-fer.
JMHO, as always.
Johnny Thomasson
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Matthew Carlin
- Posts: 463
- Joined: 25 Mar 2008 4:03 pm
- Location: Lake County, IL.
Prices haven't changed that much in 70 years ...
In 1950 the Fender Pro 15 aka tv front pro is listed for $199.50
that is $1905.77 in 2013 dollars
I believe that the Standel cost more at than the pro at that time...
Edit ... I found the price.. Standels were listed at 295.00 that's $2818 today...
In 1950 the Fender Pro 15 aka tv front pro is listed for $199.50
that is $1905.77 in 2013 dollars
I believe that the Standel cost more at than the pro at that time...
Edit ... I found the price.. Standels were listed at 295.00 that's $2818 today...
Last edited by Matthew Carlin on 14 Jan 2013 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Just tryin to make some music in the money business"
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Tim Marcus
- Posts: 1671
- Joined: 9 Nov 2005 1:01 am
- Location: San Francisco, CA
- Contact:
The price of my Milkman Steel Amp in 1950 would have been $322.92, little more than a Fender, but the components are a little nicer 
fun to think about it that way!
http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm
fun to think about it that way!
http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm
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Stephen Cowell
- Posts: 2875
- Joined: 6 Jan 2012 8:13 am
- Location: Round Rock, Texas, USA
Back in the day, tube technology was state-of-the-art... that's what everyone was making. There was a choice available in large-geometry, high voltage parts. Tubes were actually burned-in and tested to the data sheet, and discarded if out of spec. Capacitors referred to as 'boutiqe' today were the norm of yesteryear... when Made In USA was the best you could get.
Modern factory tube amps are made with minimum-spec, small-geometry parts. Crowding more circuits into more space, with more signals in the same (parallel) plane, means more crosstalk, parasitics, etc. Where the minimum capacity resistor in one of Leo's blackface amps was 1/2watt, you'll find 1/4watt parts all over your current Fender or Peavey. Most garage players can't tell the difference if their amp has parasitics or sounds harsh... and the big boys figured out that most equipment is sold to wanna-be's.
So the boutique builders are trying to recapture the golden era of electronics. Caps that were once commonplace are now expensive, small-lot items. Some tube production secrets (cathode chemistry, etc) have yet to be re-perfected, physics may hold the key here (nanotube cathodes, etc), so for boutique NOS is generally the rule for now. Cheap, plastic-bobbin non-interleaved output transformers, high-ESR filter caps, small geometries, current-production vacuum tubes, all contribute to why a boutique amplifier is worth the money over mass-production.
Amp-Builder Tip Of The Day: filter caps have much less ESR when warmed up. Mount them close to the finals! One of Doug Roccaforte's discoveries.
Modern factory tube amps are made with minimum-spec, small-geometry parts. Crowding more circuits into more space, with more signals in the same (parallel) plane, means more crosstalk, parasitics, etc. Where the minimum capacity resistor in one of Leo's blackface amps was 1/2watt, you'll find 1/4watt parts all over your current Fender or Peavey. Most garage players can't tell the difference if their amp has parasitics or sounds harsh... and the big boys figured out that most equipment is sold to wanna-be's.
So the boutique builders are trying to recapture the golden era of electronics. Caps that were once commonplace are now expensive, small-lot items. Some tube production secrets (cathode chemistry, etc) have yet to be re-perfected, physics may hold the key here (nanotube cathodes, etc), so for boutique NOS is generally the rule for now. Cheap, plastic-bobbin non-interleaved output transformers, high-ESR filter caps, small geometries, current-production vacuum tubes, all contribute to why a boutique amplifier is worth the money over mass-production.
Amp-Builder Tip Of The Day: filter caps have much less ESR when warmed up. Mount them close to the finals! One of Doug Roccaforte's discoveries.
New FB Page: Lap Steel Licks And Stuff: https://www.facebook.com/groups/195394851800329
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Jerry Fleming
- Posts: 370
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Roanoke, Virginia, USA
- Contact:
Interesting topic,
I guess my biggest gripe is not the actual amp cost its self but the construction techniques used in many high dollar amps. They often use very high quality heavy components held in place only by the leads flying from point to point. It does not take much shock to break or shear the thin leads if the part is not staked down in some fashion. In the new reissue Fender amps the reliability is really bad due to the cheap circuit boards and fast on crimped connectors. The components used in the reissue amps are as cheap as you can find. I have worked on brand new amps with poor crimp connections and cold solder joints. The heat from the tubes really stress the tube sockets and pcb solder connections. I have seen leaky caps after 6 months on new Fender amps due to the heat from the tubes and cheap capacitors.
Quality components and hand wiring is expensive. You can clearly see the quality Tim puts into his Milkman amps by the components used, heat shrink wiring and tight layout. My thoughts are if you are spending top dollar for an amp it should not just sound awesome but have high reliability. I have only seen pictures of the Milkman but it is impressive and clearly very well built.
Objectivity check, this is my view as a design engineer and week end musician so I may be a little more biased. (pun intended)
But you know the old saying, the proof is in the pudding.
Kind regards,
Jerry
I guess my biggest gripe is not the actual amp cost its self but the construction techniques used in many high dollar amps. They often use very high quality heavy components held in place only by the leads flying from point to point. It does not take much shock to break or shear the thin leads if the part is not staked down in some fashion. In the new reissue Fender amps the reliability is really bad due to the cheap circuit boards and fast on crimped connectors. The components used in the reissue amps are as cheap as you can find. I have worked on brand new amps with poor crimp connections and cold solder joints. The heat from the tubes really stress the tube sockets and pcb solder connections. I have seen leaky caps after 6 months on new Fender amps due to the heat from the tubes and cheap capacitors.
Quality components and hand wiring is expensive. You can clearly see the quality Tim puts into his Milkman amps by the components used, heat shrink wiring and tight layout. My thoughts are if you are spending top dollar for an amp it should not just sound awesome but have high reliability. I have only seen pictures of the Milkman but it is impressive and clearly very well built.
Objectivity check, this is my view as a design engineer and week end musician so I may be a little more biased. (pun intended)
But you know the old saying, the proof is in the pudding.
Kind regards,
Jerry