12 string C6th

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 11 Jan 2003 10:50 am

Jeff,

I play in ensembles. There is always a bass player, one or two other instruments playing chords and usually some other guys also like horn players or something.

When I play I don't try to be the entire string quartet. I try to fulfill the musical role of the viola. In a jazz context I find myself gravitating to the role of the trombone section in an Ellington arrangement.

How I hear music is more related to quartal harmony than triadic stacks of intervals with alterations. I also tend to play parts that are contrapuntally based in the middle register. So in my case having the low C string doesn't do me much good. I almost never played it within ensemble situations. Having the D string in the middle offers a different set of options that I find much more useful.

Another thing to think about is how closely related the E13 tuning is to the C6 tuning with the middle D. There is allot there that has been used in a standard way for quite some time now.

I understand your system of logic with your tuning. It is a beautiful thing. The thing I don't think you understand is that there are many different musical systems even within the limited context of jazz that each offer valid ways of expressing oneself. One of the most important things I learned from getting a formal musical education is that right and wrong have nothing to do with playing music.

I have also found that what I need to deal with as a steel player under the gun on the bandstand has very little to do with the crafty stuff I was practicing all day.

I could give you specific intervalic/musical examples of why the middle D thing is more practical for my needs but you tend to relate everything to your own personal closed system of musical logic. If you can only comprehend music within one fixed system then you already have all the answers.

Bob

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 11 Jan 2003 10:57 am

b0b, The point of the chart is not to add a D string. We all know that by adding the D string, you don't have to move the bar to get the note. By that reasoning, add an F and a B. Then you can play the whole scale on one fret! Add the chromatics, and you never have to leave the fret! The point of the illustration was to demonstrate that it isn't about a single fret. The whole neck is in action and a single additional note does little to change that. And it's not like the note has no cost - it hurts the efficiency of all chord structures. It has a cost that will hurt your playing if you get past basic I-IV-V harmony. It has to. And I know you're not into jazz, but as I said earlier, your richest jazz harmony is corrupted if you ever take it to that step, and four picks won't correct that, but now I'm repeating myself from earlier posts.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 11 Jan 2003 11:01 am

I may call it quits now. We'll see. As usual, opinions are never changed by these kinds of debates, but the advantage is that there sometimes is stuff to be gleaned from the points that are made that can help one's playing. So it isn't all in vain.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 11 Jan 2003 11:36 am

you tend to relate everything to your own personal closed system of musical logic.

Bob H., YOU, of all people, CAN NOT insult my musical sensibilites. DO NOT go there. As hard-edged as my posts admittedly have been, I am careful to toe the line and not criticize in others what you have just chosen to criticize in me. You cannot attack my musical sensibilities. I won't take it without a fight, a fight that you will lose. b0b might consider closing down this thread, because I don't want it to turn ugly. But if not, I am up for it.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 11 Jan 2003 12:05 pm

Jeff,
Sorry that you feel insulted. That was not my intention. Music is a big open thing and there are lots of ways to express it. Each way is as valid as the next as far as I'm concerned.

If you want to fight it out I'll meet at the bar of your choice and buy the first round

Bob

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 11 Jan 2003 2:52 pm

your own personal closed system of musical logic

Sorry that you feel insulted. That was not my intention

It sure sounds like it was exactly that.

We'll take a pass for now. But I got my eye on you!

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 Jan 2003 6:17 pm

It has a cost that will hurt your playing if you get past basic I-IV-V harmony. It has to. And I know you're not into jazz, but as I said earlier, your richest jazz harmony is corrupted if you ever take it to that step, and four picks won't correct that, but now I'm repeating myself from earlier posts.

I don't understand how the richness of harmony can be corrupted by making an additional note available. I don't have to play it, do I? I haven't removed anything from the C6th tuning. All of your rich jazz harmonies are still there, aren't they?

You're right, though, in that this is getting repetitious, and no one's mind will be changed. I'll close this topic soon.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 11 Jan 2003 9:19 pm

I agree with b0b that there doesn't seem to be a lot of minds to be changed on this thread. It seems like the basic disagreement is that Jeff thinks that the basic C6th tuning (along with the standard technique of using thumb pick raking to get more that three voices) is all that's needed in terms of playing jazz on the pedal steel. I'm certainly not going to argue that there's not a lot of music there. Certainly much of the best jazz on pedal steel has been played using this sort of setup.

My only disagreement is that this is the best setup to play all sorts of jazz on the steel. Adding additional notes to the tuning helps, using additional picks (and pick blocking) really, really helps. The universe of playing jazz is immense, there are so many avenues to take, especially on the pedal steel, with no tradition to deal with (in terms of the jazz world, in which the pedal steel has barely existed before Ruben Blades).

Here's an example of a jazz guitar solo which is particularly 'guitaristic' and specifically really hard to get on a standard c6th setup: http://tyack.com/lenny%20breau%20-%20all%20the%20things%20you%20are%20(1)-1.wma

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www.tyack.com
[This message was edited by Dan Tyack on 11 January 2003 at 09:22 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 11 Jan 2003 11:44 pm

Jeff thinks that the basic C6th tuning (along with the standard technique of using thumb pick raking to get more that three voices) is all that's needed in terms of playing jazz on the pedal steel.

I have a NON-BASIC 11-string tuning, and some very NON-BASIC pedal choices.

<pre>
LKL LKV LKR 4 5 6 7 8 RKL RKR

D
G -F#
E +F
C ++D -B
A +Bb -Ab ++B ++B
G --F -F#
E -Eb
C +C#
A
F +F# -E --Eb
C ---A ++D</pre>

You know, you really oughta research your points before making your statements. This isn't the first time on this thread that this has happened. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 12 January 2003 at 12:05 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Jan 2003 10:49 am

I see several "non-standard" things in your tuning, Jeff, and I have questions about them: <ol>[*]Pedal 4 doesn't include the low A to B change. Is this because it would interfere with thumb raked chords?</li>
[*]Pedal 5 doesn't include the low C to D change. Why not?</li>
[*]The high G is lowered on pedal 5, instead of raised. My new tuning also does this. I did it on a hunch (I've never had a high G before). Could you explain why you do it?</li>
[*]I've never seen a lever like your RKR before. Could you explain its use, please?</li>[*]Why is lowering the middle G to F better than raising the middle E to F (which is much more common)?</li>[/list]

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Jan 2003 10:58 am

Hey Dan, that Lenny Breau sample is hard to get on any instrument, including guitar!

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 12 Jan 2003 12:38 pm

Why is lowering the middle G to F better than raising the middle E to F (which is much more common)?

To get a IV maj7, if you've been puttering around the 10th and 12th frets and you're in the key of F and you want to land on the Tonic, in the middle of your strings, without having to jump back to the 4th fret, there it is.

I've got an 11-string C6 that's fairly normal, there are changes I would like to add, but more often then not, I don't use all I've got. Most of what I end up doing is "horn section" II-V stuff so this works well for me.
<pre>
<- -> 4 5 6 7 8 <- ->
1 G G#
2 E Eb F
3 C C# D B
4 A B B Bb
5 G F#
6 E Eb Eb
7 C C#
8 A Bb
9 G F# F F
10 E D Eb (D)
11 C
</pre>[This message was edited by chas smith on 12 January 2003 at 05:10 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 12 Jan 2003 1:44 pm

Jeff, and I have questions about them:

I quit the topic after my last post .. Take care.