12 string C6th

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Jan 2003 11:11 pm

The definition of 'jazz' has been expanding in recent years and, as a result, sales of 'jazz' CDs are up.

I tend to think of E9th for triad music, and C6th for music with more complex chords. On the E9th, the notes of the chord are the same in the upper octave. On the C6th, the upper octave of a pedal combination is more likely to have different notes from the lower octave.

Does that characteristic automatically make it 'jazz'? I'm not sure. I'm just stringing up this C6th to find more ways to play. I think that C6th sounds really nice in new age music, and in modal music that doesn't change chords much (if at all). The middle D string works really well for that. It's also great as a scale tone for blues licks.

By setting up this guitar with C6th, I'm sort of abandoning my F Diatonic for a while. It's hard for me to think of going straight from 7 strings per octave down to 4. With the D strings in there, I have 5 strings per octave, like on the E9th. I think this will suit me just fine.

I've really enjoyed the feedback in this topic, though. It's been very thought-provoking. Thanks, guys!

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
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Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 5 Jan 2003 6:41 am

I guess the word "modern" was a misnomer on my part. More like "quartal" I guess.... and 30+ years isnt exactly modern is it?

Rick, My point was more directed at the idea that, somehow, only TODAY'S jazz tunes are considered "modern". You automaticaly looked at jazz from decades back as being modern; that does make sense to me. I guess I don't like the idea of distinguishing part of the genre as "modern", because it implies that other parts are "old" or "ancient", and that makes NO SENSE to me. I mean to say that today's stuff is modern, implying that the stuff of Parker, Coltrane, Tatum, etc. isn't modern, I dont' see it. Jazz thinking decades ago was so much more harmonically advanced than today's pop music, as well as much of the jazz that is recorded today. To my ears, rock and pop and country seem to get dated, but, other than the lower recording quality of decades back, jazz from back then sounds plenty "modern" to me. Maybe the songs aren't recently written and recently on the charts, but it doesn't sound old. The same thing can be said for tradtional classical music. It's timeless, and never gets old sounding.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 05 January 2003 at 06:52 AM.]

Rusty Walker · Post by **Rusty Walker** » 5 Jan 2003 6:51 am

bOb,your LKL is a nice change.If you're experimenting,try the D-Eb separatly.On a vertical.It creates nice movement combined with other pedals.However you do it you will find some amazing chords & changes.I've thot of putting in that low D,but I like sweeping with my thumb on those low strings & simultaneously picking the top two strings of the chord-sort of a piano effect i.e. old standards.Having a D in there would screw that up.On the other hand,low scales would be a lot easier.Since you use 4 picks,you may end up with the best of both.Have a ball.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 5 Jan 2003 7:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>On the C6th, the upper octave of a pedal combination is more likely to have different notes from the lower octave.

Does that characteristic automatically make it 'jazz'?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We're talking strictly harmonically here, because obviously any musical genre is defined also in terms of rhythm, composition, instrumentation, and other things. But, harmonically speaking, the C6 tuning gives you jazz harmony for a number fo reasons. As you said, the pulls aren't parallel, and generally speaking that gives you many opportunities for creating the combinations of intervals that are generally used in jazz harmony. And equally, if not more important, is the fact that the basic tuning is built in such as a way as to naturally allow you to create the FUNDAMENTAL building blocks of jazz harmony (in ways that are FAR more intuitive and accessible than on E9). Such as: the 5 qualities of 7th chord ( maj7, min7, dim7, 7b5, dominant7). Such as: jazz minor chord (see my above post). Such as: jazz cadences ii-V, tri-tone subs. Such as: bass movement to support the motion of the progressions. When you start combining, mixing and matching all this stuff together, then you're playing jazz. The next issue becomes just how "out-of-the-box" do you want to get. The melodies of jazz standards are usually diatonic and require the chord progressions to create the interesting jazz harmony. The more you diverge from the harmony of the original tune, the more "out-of-the-box" your jazz becomes.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 05 January 2003 at 07:32 AM.]

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 5 Jan 2003 12:30 pm

I have recently been considering purchasing a S-12 w/7 & 4, and using Curly Chalker's C6 and adding two top strings w/o compromizing his set-up! The guitar would be tuned from 12 to 1 in this manor: (the first two strs. being extra) (12-A)(11-D)(10-F)(9-A)(8-C)(7-E) (6-G)(5-A)(4-C)(3-E)(*2-B)(*1-D) Then he used 7 floor pedals, which is no problem, and RKL & RKR. So far, no problem, however; he had two LK's that raised #5-A to Bb along with pedals 1 & 2 (C6) raised #5-A to B, which makes 4 raises on the same string, which needs a special hook-up to accomplish! If I could arrange the hook-up, that's the way I would go. I know it can be done (easy on the SHO-BUD Pro model), because I had the set-up on my first Franklin in '80, and besides that Curly had it on several guitars! I know how to do it, however; I haven't convinced myself that it's worth the effort! If I get the urge, that's the way I will go! (Of course not to give up the D-10 Franklin, just a spare toy) "Big John" Nashville http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/doc

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 5 Jan 2003 7:56 pm

b0b,
this looks great. The 'strummability' factor isn't significant, as you have found. As long as you can hit four note voicings in jazz (and letting the bass player do his thing) you don't really need anything else, unless you want to do solo jazz like Joe Pass (who I suppose could have been considered 'modern', but who used a harmonic palette that was created before I was born, in 1955).

Along with the hybrid Sacred Steel tuning you proposed (and which I have been using exclusively on my E neck), you have a combination of strumability (on the E tuning) and a great tuning to get jazz or any other sort of voicings you want to hear with this tuning.

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Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 6 Jan 2003 2:09 am

unless you want to do solo jazz like Joe Pass

Who wouldn't want to play jazz like Joe Pass!! I mean, what serious jazz guitarist wouldn't want to play jazz like Joe Pass!!!!! That's like saying "unless you want to play steel guitar like Buddy Emmons". Sheesh!

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 06 January 2003 at 02:10 AM.]

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 6 Jan 2003 9:23 am

I never said I wouldn't want to play jazz like Joe Pass. I just said unless you want to do solo jazz (where you need to do the bass part in addition to the chord voicings) then you don't need more than 4 voices.

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Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 6 Jan 2003 5:09 pm

I don't want to play like Joe Pass. At least, I don't think I want to. I'm not sure I've ever heard him. I'm not real interested in jazz. Most of it is way over my head. I'm more interested in playing like Bill Frisell. (Is that jazz?)

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
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Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 6 Jan 2003 8:41 pm

Well, Frisell can play amazing straight ahead bopish standards (ala Joe Pass), but he chooses not to (usually). I like to listen to Joe Pass, but I don't see him as being a particularly great 'role model' for me as a steel player. Mainly because Joe Pass was first and formost a guitar virtuoso, and secondly a jazz inovator. Most of the stuff he played doesn't translate particularly well to the steel (IMHO) because it is very 'guitaristic'. I'm not saying that steel players couldn't play Joe Pass lines (I've played a few), just that his playing is particularly tied to the instrument.

Some of the jazz players that I think translate well to the steel are players like Johnny Hodges, or in the guitar world, Wes Montgomery.

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Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Jan 2003 7:21 am

Most of the stuff he played doesn't translate particularly well to the steel

Dan, He plays chord harmonies, bass lines, and riffs. Why doesn't that stuff translate to steel? That is too broad a claim; you need to be more specific. .. Jeff

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 7 Jan 2003 8:42 am

Listen to any of Pass's solo records (or his duo records with Ella Fitzgerald). His playing sounds (IMHO) 'guitaristic', meaning that the style is tied to his considerable virtuosity on that instrument. Similar to Oscar Petersen (except on the piano). Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not a guitar player. If somebody could give an example of a steel player doing the same thing as that solo Pass work I could be convinced.

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Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Jan 2003 9:16 am

the style is tied to his considerable virtuosity

What does this mean? Style is not tied to virtuosity. Style is the juxtaposition of a musician's rhythmic, harmonic, melodic, and technical components. Virtuosity is simply the competency with which these things are performed. One can stylistically play like Joe Pass or Buddy Emmons, even they are not virtuosos.

If somebody could give an example of a steel player doing the same thing as that solo Pass work I could be convinced.

Convince you of what? That you can play harmony and bass notes on steel? The essense of Pass's "style" is creating harmony with chords and motion using bass notes. It can be done on piano or steel. Of course it won't sound EXACTLY the same, since the tonalites and technical components of the instruments are different, but you obviously can do things on steel similar to Joe Pass, as long as you have the understanding and technical abilities to play interesting harmony and bass with the right sense of rhythm. Obviously, Joe Pass might play a chord that is not available in the C6 tuning, but there is invariably a voicing that will harmonically accomplisg the same thing. The reason why you might be restricted from this is only due to any inherent limitations of the instrument. This goes back to why I don't agree with the middle-D idea. It compromises the orientation of the tuning that readily allows you to do traditional jazz voicings.

Post by **b0b** » 7 Jan 2003 10:52 am

I'm not familiar with Joe Pass, but I see what Dan is getting at. Guitarists will naturally gravitate towards chords with wider intervals. Pianists, on the other hand, can play very close groupings naturally.

It's often hard for composers and arrangers, who typically are pianists, to write parts for guitar if they don't play guitar. Guitarists are often called upon to arrange their own parts, which end up sounding, as Dan put it, 'guitaristic'.

The pedal steel is capable of mimicing 'guitaristic' arrangements, but it is also capable of playing many of the 'pianistic' chord inversions (which can have tighter intervals). A steel player could view many guitar arrangements as too confining. A steel player might often include notes in a chord that a guitarist would omit.

A common example is a chord using strings 5,4,3,2 of the C6th - G,A,C,E. While technically possible on guitar, it is quite a stretch. It's not 'guitaristic', but it's easy on piano and trivial on steel.

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Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 7 Jan 2003 11:05 am

I'd like to hear an example of a steel player doing the Joe Pass solo thing on steel. I don't mean playing bass lines, harmony and melody simultaneously. Of course you can do that on the steel, but the Joe Pass solo thing is a far cry from doing Travis picking. I've never heard a steel player come close, although I have heard some pretty average guitar players do transcriptions of Pass stuff note for note, and exceptional guitar players take that style to a new dimension (e.g. Lenny Breau or Ted Greene).

However, if I were to try to nail the Joe Pass style, I would use a tuning pretty similar to the tuning that b0b is proposing, and would use a picked style (probably would need to use picks on all fingers). If you listen to Joe's solo playing, he is choosing very specific 3-5 voice harmonies in his chording, picking these with his fingers (or so it sounds to me). He is not fingering a standard jazz chord in his left hand and strumming.

Or so it sounds to me. I'm not a guitar player, but I saw Joe play a few times in the early 70s, and that's what it looked like to me.

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Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Jan 2003 11:34 am

if I were to try to nail the Joe Pass style

he is choosing very specific 3-5 voice harmonies in his chording

First of all, if by describing a style, you're saying that he picks specific 3-5 note voicings, this is something that many jazz guitarists do. It's also something you can readily do on C6 with 3 picks, the right technique, and the right tuning (no middle-D). If you are referring to specific kinds of harmonies, then I have no idea what you are talking about since you refuse to give any specifics of what it is about his style that can not be played on C6. Also, his style relies heavily on motion supplied by the bass movement, something that can be done on C6 obviously.

This discouse isn't going anywhere. I can't keep refuting simple, generic statements without evidence, only to be answered with more generic statements. Simplistic, unsupported statements are easy to make. Refuting them is hard because I gotta do too much thinking. I'll say this, I wouldn't want to play Joe Pass harmonies or any kind of traditional jazz harmonies with the middle-D. You take a common sense tuning, and stick an uncommon-sense note in there so that you don't have to move the bar two frets, and then rationalize it/justify it by saying you can get "modern" voicings. I'm done. The middle-D is a bad idea. Bye.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 07 January 2003 at 11:40 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 7 Jan 2003 11:54 am

I'm very comfortable with the middle D because I play extended E9th. On E9th, I usually lower the D to C# when I lower the E to D# (the "B6th" position"). I do a lot of scale/melody playing in that low-mid area of the course, especially in blues.

I agree with Jeff that the middle D may be a bad idea for jazz, especially if you're not used to muting a single string with your left thumb. The "strummable" chords are a big part of traditional steel guitar jazz.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 7 Jan 2003 3:51 pm

Jeff, here's a specific example:

If you could point me to an example of a steel player doing something like this I would be very impressed. I don't think it's there on a standard C6th, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

Notice that Joe never plays more than 4 strings at a time, which lends support to the argument that you don't need to strum to play jazz.......

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Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 7 Jan 2003 5:24 pm

That bit from "Just Friends" lays pretty easy on C6 or E9. You don't even need a middle D string on your C6 but it does help in spots like the Fm (bar 29) at the 5th fret.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Jan 2003 5:51 pm

Here's the first bunch of chords from the first three staffs. Line 10 of the tab indicates the meaure and chord - for example M2 C3 means measure 2, chord 3. All chords not tabbed are just duplicates of the ones that are tabbed. I don't see what this proves since, if you can't play one particular combo of notes, then you find an alternative and equally effective harmony. And anyway, Pass's style is as much about the rhythm, bass, and motion, as it is about harmony. But since you asked, here it is - no charge! And now I'm out of here (where have I heard that before?)

<pre>1_________________________________________________________________________________
2_________________________________________________________________________________
3_____9___________13L_________________________________________________________2___
4__________________________________________________________________5(7____________
5_____9_________________________8___________9___________8(5________5__________2___
6_____9(6_________13____________8(6_________9(6_________8__________5______________
7_________________13_______________________________________________5__________2(8_
8_____9_________________________8___________9___________8_________________________
9_________________13(5____________________________________________________________
10___M1_C1________M1_C2________M2_C3_______M2_C4_______M2_C5_______M5_C1____M9_C1_</pre>

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 7 Jan 2003 6:04 pm

Wouldn't it be easier to play the 2nd chord in the 1st bar (Eb13) on the same strings as the 1st chord (D13)?

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Jan 2003 7:33 pm

The first chord is a D9, not D13. The Eb13, however, could be played at the 10th fret if the first string is an open D. .. Jeff[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 07 January 2003 at 07:54 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 7 Jan 2003 7:46 pm

Right you are. But it could be D13 if you strum the D string too.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Jan 2003 7:55 pm

Beat you. HA!!

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Jan 2003 7:56 pm

Well, actually you can't tell that I beat you. But I did. HA!!