12 string C6th

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Jan 2003 11:31 am

I dropped off my antique Sierra Olympic S-12 at Tom Bradshaw's yesterday to have it switched to C6th. I bent my brain for quite a while trying to figure the best way to expand C6th to 12 strings. I finally decided to just add two D strings inline: <pre>G
E
D
C
A
G
E
D
C
A
F
C</pre>I know it messes up the "stummability" of the C6th, but I play with four picks and I'm comfortable with skip grips. I've been playing D6th with a middle E for a few months now and it comes naturally to me.

The pedals and knee levers on this new C6th will be very close to the "standard" C6th setup. Comments?

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 2 Jan 2003 11:43 am

You may want the high D as your first string instead. I think it was on the "Live In Denver" CD that Buddy Emmons demonstrates his high D string. It gets used a lot like the high F# string on E9 which would also be in the way if it was between the G# and E. A lot of licks and rolls would be harder to play that way also.

James Winwood · Post by **James Winwood** » 2 Jan 2003 12:01 pm

Bobby,
I recommend a low and high B and a middle D,
drop the low C (with D on top).
I feel this to be a very effective lead playing/jazz tuning (for me at least). Tight voicings and lots of possible dissonance. Modern jazz chord voicings. Scalar based.
The lower half is identical to the top half, save the middle G string and I have that F on a pedal
Lines you up in F lydian.
[This message was edited by James Winwood on 02 January 2003 at 12:06 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 2 Jan 2003 12:47 pm

I like all the strings in order of pitch.
Add pedals and knee levers as needed, and be sure to try a couple of really weird pedals now and then.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 2 Jan 2003 2:10 pm

Yeah, I'd like to spend some time with that one. I've got the C6 neck on my D-12 tuned to:

G
E
C
G
G
G
C
G
G
C
C
C

The bottom C is an .090 and I took off all the pedals and knees.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 2 Jan 2003 2:54 pm

Y'all are nuts! Just play a universal.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Jan 2003 3:52 pm

I don't know, Chas. That E might get in the way.

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 2 Jan 2003 4:25 pm

b0b:

Drop the sixth str. G down to F. I don't have the middle D, but I lower the E to D on the same pedal as the "C" pedal on E9. Pushes harder, but still not bad.

I have a D as the 11th str. and raise it to Eb on the #9 pedal (usually P8 on a standard setup). So, I have both an E and an Eb. The Eb is more useful in my opinion. The other 3 changes are standard P8 (I try to not call it the "boo-wah")

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 2 Jan 2003 5:46 pm

You might try out the late Ivor Derrig's Megalyre tuning:

C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C

Derrig really did tune his 6 foot homemade lap steel this way. No kidding.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Jan 2003 8:46 pm

Here's the chart for it:
<center>

</center>
It's not very different from what most people have. The main feature is the addition of the two D strings.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 02 January 2003 at 08:49 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Jan 2003 8:57 pm

One really nice thing about this tuning is the grip of strings 5, 3 and 1 with P1+P2. This gives the notes B D F#, the top notes of a D6th, with wide string spacing suitable for a forward slant, like Jerry Byrd used to do on all those old records.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 2 Jan 2003 10:47 pm

I know it messes up the "stummability" of the C6th, but I play with four picks and I'm comfortable with skip grips.

b0b, I wasn't going to respond to this since it is certainly your preogative to have any tuning you want, and certainly your own particular style and musical preferences have a lot to do with your decisions on your copedent, BUT, when you somehow imply that the "strummability" is the issue, than I jump in. The "strummability" is the result of the fact that the standard C6 without the middle D note is a logical tuning that allows complex chords to be constructed logically. That understanding alone would take a post that would be pages long. But just for example, pedals 6,7 together form a "jazz minor" chord, which is the chord that outlines the jazz minor (melodic minor) scale, one of the vital scales for playing traditional jazz. This chord/scale provides an extremely rich harmony that has truly a multitude of uses in many progressions. It is sometimes called a #11, altered chord, min(maj7), etc., depending on the root (bass note). To play the chord completely, requires 7 notes (in the open tuning, that would be, from string 9 up, F,A,C,Eb,G,B,D). It has two major-7 intervals (C-B,Eb-D) which account for the depth of this harmony. You can get by with 6 strings (leave out the pedal 7 "D" note), but anything less and you lose some of the essense of the chord/scale. As far as I know, only piano and steel can play this chord. The reason it can be played on C6 is the logic of the standard tuning. It CANNOT be played with 4 picks, only approximated, like on 6-string guitar. I could easily provide other examples as well of this issue, although the corruption of this chord alone is reason enough. If you aren't interested in traditional jazz, then you probably don't care, but there are readers/players out there who may not know any better, who should understand this issue. Best of luck with the new copedent. .. Jeff [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 02 January 2003 at 10:50 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Jan 2003 10:12 am

Understood, Jeff. As you surmised, I am not a jazz player and I have little interest in playing more than 4 notes at once.

And again I should offer a disclaimer: people should not consider me an expert in these matters. I've only been playing C6th for about 4 years, and I've barely scratched the surface of what is available in the tuning. If you are interested in the traditional jazz application of the C6th, pay attention to people like Jeff who play that kind of music.

Jeff, how would you extend the C6th tuning for a single 12 guitar? Just curious. I agonized over the problem quite a bit.

And finally, in defense of the middle D, I point you all to this page of Buddy Emmons' 12-string C6th.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Jan 2003 10:17 am

On the extended E9th, I sometimes mute the middle F# or D string with my right pinky or my left thumb to strum a chord. It's not an easy thing to do, but it does the trick.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 3 Jan 2003 10:40 am

I have an 11-string C6. I have a D on top as my first string and G as my second. If I had another string, I would opt for additional bass flexibility. Since I don't have the extra string, I have not figured out what note to use. I would have to consider the natural composition of the tuning and look for a common sense note. Perhaps a G note lower than the A of the "boo-wah" sound. One of the annoyances of the tuning is not having a readily accessible G (V) note in the bass. I have to move up one fret, and lower the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th strings using pedals 5,6 and two knee levers, and then play string 9 for a G note in the bass. The other option is to move up 7 frets and play the 10th string. (I don't consider string 8 as a bass string even though I do use it to sometimes create the chord movement I want. But I wouldn't go out of my way to lower it to G). The 5th note of the chord, while not necessary in the voicing to define it, is critical for creating the motion (i.e. tension and resolution) of chord progressions and very often played under a chord in an arrangement or orchestration of a tune. If you get into serious reharmonizing of a song, it can get used quite often. For me, I can't overestimate the importance of bass flexibility for arrangements and developing the harmony and chord motion. Anyway, that's just off the top of my head.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 3 Jan 2003 12:58 pm

My reccomendation for C6th 12 string would be to add to the high end.

For example, make your top 3 strings:
D
A
G

Followed by the standard 6th setup (with whatever extra KL's).

I find it great for Big Band and Western Swing.

My 12 string B6th on S12U:
C#
G#
F#
Eb
B
G#
F#
Eb
B
G#
E
B

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 03 January 2003 at 12:59 PM.]

Rusty Walker · Post by **Rusty Walker** » 3 Jan 2003 3:34 pm

bOb.for what it's worth,my 12-c6 is set up thus;

G
E
D
C
A
G
E
C
A
F
D
C
P4 raises string 5a-b,10f-g & 11d-e
Raising the middle A-Bb gives some nice inovations

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Jan 2003 4:52 pm

It's nice to see someone else putting the high D between the C and the E, Rusty. I feel less lonely now.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 4 Jan 2003 10:27 am

I also like seeing the low D that Rusty put in there! I've got a pedal on my D12 10+6 (between the usual 7 & 8 pedals) that lowers my F to D. That in conjuntion with a lever that raises both E's to F, and also lowering the low F to Eb (instead of E) with the "Boo Wah" pedal right next to it, is an amazingly happy accident that I found for great moving modern type chord-melody bass lines. It was well worth not having the ususal 7&8 next to each other. Didn't Curly C. also have a low D on his C6?

BTW, since I've got so damn many pedals on that axe, I just put a middle C to D raise on another pedal. So I'm able to get most of those chords too, and keep the familiar "strumability" in tact. I don't feel too self indulgent though cuz my main gigging steel is just a D10 8+2.

[This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 04 January 2003 at 10:29 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Jan 2003 11:40 am

modern type chord-melody bass lines.

Rick, it's funny that you use the word "modern" to describe chord-melody bass movement. My impression from a couple of the proponents of the middle-D thinking is that they generally feel that you sacrifice the low 10th string C note if you have to (b0b isn't, since he has 12 strings), since the middle-D gives you "modern" voicings. Since most proponents of the middle-D generally have no problem with dumping the 10th string C, they obviously feel that that string (and by implication, bass-chord-melody dynamics) offers little in the way of supporting "modern" jazz thinking. So, I guess one person's "modern" can be different than another person's "modern", no?[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 January 2003 at 03:11 PM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 4 Jan 2003 11:43 am

Didn't Curly C. also have a low D on his C6?

Curly's last five strings were C-A-F-D-A. He didn't have the boo-wah pedal per se, as he already had the low A.

Instead of adding the middle D, I've been fooling with Paul Franklin's P5 from b0b's chart: http://b0b.com/tunings/pf_c6.htm
It raises 7 C-D, 8 A-C, and 9 F-A. It's not a hard pull and only adds the D when needed/wanted.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Jan 2003 12:16 pm

IMO, you can't really base your thinking on any one thing that Curly Chalker does and say that it proves something about how a C6 copedent should be organized. As best as I recall, CC's copedent deviates more from standard C6 than just about anyones. He leaves off the high note, has an extra bass string, and most of his pedals have highly irregular changes on them. So I don't think that to isolate one part of his copedent is evidence of some idea. This is not to say that I don't think the D bass note isn't a good idea. Any thing that augments your bass capability/flexibility is good, IMO, and the D note is a vital note in the bass setup on C6. It's just that I don't think you can use CC as a way of proving it.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 January 2003 at 12:18 PM.]

Rex Thomas · Post by **Rex Thomas** » 4 Jan 2003 12:59 pm

Having played a steel where the groupings weren't standard for many years, I like it, b0b. Appears as if you could fly through scales with the greatest of ease. Thanx for showing the set up as well.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 4 Jan 2003 9:05 pm

I feel the same way that Jeff says. I tried that D in the middle and it just gets in the way for me on Big Band and Jazz chords. If I want that D for a scale run, I just as soon pick it separately, I have always gone down two frets and pick it on the E string then back up.I guess that is from the old lap steel days, when we didn't have pedals.
I like the D on the 1st string too, I tried it between the C and E, and it is a good idea for some, but didn't work for me.
I can see a reason for the
D on the 11th string between the C and F, as it gives the root for the 13th chord suspended with P7,just before hitting pedal 5. But for 10 string I would rather have the high D on the 1st string, but it is good for a 12 string.
That is what is great about pedal steel , so many ways to go. .....al

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 4 Jan 2003 9:25 pm

Hey Jeff....I guess the word "modern" was a misnomer on my part. More like "quartal" I guess.... and 30+ years isnt exactly modern is it? My mistake. I'm happy with just using a pedal to get that middle D for those sounds. So many ways to go, so little time (and money for different steels to experiment on

) All in all, I like being able to get the low D on the F string more than having the middle D. Just my preference.
Although I do think that having that middle D might make sight reading a little easier without always looking down at your neck.

As far as the low C string goes, I'd miss the C to D raise (trad ped 5) there the most for that D dom. chord. MOre than the #9 "boo wha" lowered thing. I use the F to D lower mostly for minors with a low root and big 11ths.