Tuning 440

Robert Thomas · Post by **Robert Thomas** » 29 Dec 2002 6:05 pm

Just a thought. I always tune 440 straight up on both necks.
I assume the rest of the band tunes 440 also. If I tune any string, pedal up or down at anything other than 440, I feel I will then be out of tune with everyone in the band. Does that make sense or should everyone tune flat or sharp to how the steel player feels it should be?

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 29 Dec 2002 7:18 pm

If I tune the beats out on any of my guitars the 5 and 10 string are going to be sharp by a mile.
I'm currently tuning like this:

F# 440---G# 436.5
D# 440--C# 436.5
G# 436.5---A 438.5
E 440 D# 440---F434.5--F# 440
B 440--Bb-440--C#436.5
G# 436.5--F# 440--A 440
F# 440--G 436.5
E 440 D# 440--F--434.5
D 440--C# 436.5
B 440--Bb 440--C#436.5
I'll start with this and then tune the beats out of the 5 and 10 strings and they'll be sharper than you see here.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 29 Dec 2002 10:28 pm

On E9 I tune the Es straight up 440 (i.e. tempered to A440). Then I turn off the meter and tune everything else to sound sweet. I do it this way because it sounds better to me (and a lot of listeners), but I'm a nobody, so who cares.

However, Paul Franklin says that's how he tunes, and that most other top players he knows do the same. It's the old fashioned way that is time tested. I think for some reason you are getting a lopsided response from tempered tuners here.

But on the C6 neck, I think many people tune all strings straight up 440, because the intervals used create too many tempering problems otherwise.

By the way, I find it helpful to tune only the Es in the open position (on E9). Everything else (including pedals and knees) I tune barred at the C fret. The reason is that the strings are now tuned to my normal bar pressure toward the middle of the playing area. I have found that perfect tuning in the open position will not be perfect with the bar, because of bar pressure and the way the different guaged strings react to bar pressure.

For a little perspective, symphony orchestras tune only their A to straight up 440. Everything else is tuned to the ear (Just Intonation). There are normally no tempered instruments played in an orchestra. All fretless stringed instruments and horns have variable pitch that is played by ear to JI. Singers sing to JI (okay, not all, but we wish they all did). Only pianos, fretted stringed instruments, and other fixed pitch instruments (vibes, harps, accordions, etc.) have to tune to the tempered scale. This is not considered a good thing, but is a workable compromise, and that is why they are only wheeled onto the orchestra stage for special numbers. If you are playing along with a tempered instrument, you may need to tune even tempered or close.

Guitar bands tune mostly straight up 440; however, a lot of guitar players tweak their tuning a little for different keys, typically playing the root chord and flatting the thirds a little to sound sweeter.

The steel guitar is a fretless instrument with variable pitch that is played by ear (at least on held notes where there is time to adjust), so to some extent it doesn't matter whether you tune tempered or JI, because where it counts you will automatically adjust your pitch (we hope) to sound good with the vocal or lead instrument or bass, whatever is dominant at the moment. However, the intervals played as you chord may create a tempered versus JI dilemma. Thus, the straight major chords typically played on E9 will sound sweeter with JI, but minors, 7ths, 6ths, diminished, etc. (chords typically played on C6) may sound better tempered.

The reason this all causes such confusion and heated argument is because there is no one correct answer for all situations. It matters what type of music you are playing and what other instruments you are playing with. Maybe we should all take a cue from symphony orchestras and tweak to JI when we can, and tune tempered when we have to.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 29 December 2002 at 10:31 PM.]

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 29 Dec 2002 11:15 pm

When I listen to Nashville recording with Floyd Cramer or Pig Hargus, I wonder if Nashville studios don't use a different method for tuning their pianos. They sure sound sweet.

Buck Grantham · Post by **Buck Grantham** » 1 Jan 2003 11:43 am

I for two weeks tuned everything to 440 and played gigs with it that way. I got no complaints from the keyboard player or anyone in the band. It even sounded pretty good to me. But when I tryed to practice at home by myself it sounded so bad I had to go back to my old system of tuneing. Tune my E's open to 441, press the A & B pedals down then tune most of the beats out. I put a compensator on the 7th string. This is on a (81 model push pull emmons. My Mullen tunes about the same way. That's my story and I'm sticking to it . Ha Ha I figured that if Buddy could tune straight up , I could too,,, WRONG !!!!

Graham Griffith · Post by **Graham Griffith** » 6 Jan 2003 1:07 am

I now tune to 440 after more than 20 years of frustration (not having enough compensators). I play Zane Beck's E13th pedal steel tuning. I'm sure the sound ain't to everyone's taste but it sounds fine to me.

Note this experience. I once did a session for an Hawaiian style ad here in Australia. I was called back to put an ending slide with the tonic and third up an octave. The engineer picked that I tuned the 3rd flat and made me tune up to "440" ... so maybe I'm not so crazy or tone deaf.

Another anecdote is that John Ely, the great non-pedal Hawaiian music convert, gave up trying to play Eharp (tuned C# E F F# G G# A B C# E) because he couldn't use harmonics to tune it. I play this tuning and tune everything to 440 ... the result is a tuning that gives me most of those big jazz chords without the bother of lugging a heavy pedal steel around ... again everything sounds sweet.

Graham

Neil Lang · Post by **Neil Lang** » 6 Jan 2003 5:40 am

I have used the Newman tech. with the Korg chromatic electronic tuner for around 30 years now. On C6 the C's are at 440. On E9th the E's are at 440. Everything else is to his charts. I've tryed other tuning tech.'s but this is the only thing that sounds right to my ear? Do I have an ear prob?

Tom Hodgin · Post by **Tom Hodgin** » 6 Jan 2003 6:17 am

I find that so much can change what we hear out of our amps...maybe it's our tuning or maybe it's something as simple as blowing your nose during a gig...I ask my doctor about this very thing..he told me the pressure of blowing ones nose, on the ear drum, can change the tone of what we are hearing come for the amp...until it subsides..kind of like when you get water in your ear while swimming...I thought for a long time my amp was changing tones as the night grew longer..not so.. now who would have thought ??? tom

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 6 Jan 2003 11:21 am

Dave D,
I believe I recall Paul Franklin saying he tunes his tonic E's substantially sharp -- 442 or even 443(?) -- but the rest is like you say -- basically, tuning the beats out harmonically. That's basically what I do -- tune the E's with A+B pedals down and it usually turns out about 442 (that's 8 cents cabinet drop -- on my Fessy at any rate) without the pedals.

I'm with you, Buck. I tried 440, but didn't like it. Made the little hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

Neil,
Which Newman charts? The ones on his website sharp the E's (442.5).

Tom,
I'd agree that sinus congestion or blowing the nose could affect the frequency spectrum one hears, but I'd have to be convinced that it affects your perception of the PITCH of the note, which is the key measurement for tuning.

FWIW
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 06 January 2003 at 12:25 PM.]

Neil Lang · Post by **Neil Lang** » 6 Jan 2003 1:51 pm

Larry,
The Newman charts I am talking about are from back in the late 60's. I've tryed the newer ones, but they just don't work for me. In fact when I first heard of some guys changing that, I thought what for? Does that mean all those recordings in the past were out of tune??????????? Sounds good to me, guess I'm just one of the old dogs! Ha!
Neil

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 7 Jan 2003 7:47 am

Actually, tuning the guitar is not NEARLY as important as PLAYING in TUNE.

Neil,
The problem I have with tuning the E note to 440 (rather than sharper, like somewhere between 441 and 443, depending on the guitar) is that certain combinations -- like the E to F knee lever change -- is WAAAAAAAY FLAT. Look at the Newman chart -- the current one shows F at 435.5, which is 18 cents flat.
(just a reminder, a cent is 1/100 of the distance from one fret to the next)
That's pretty far from the note the piano player will come up with for an F.

NOW, the important part:
The 435.5 value is taken from the NEW Newman chart, which tunes the E's sharp (442.5). If, as you suggest, the earlier ones were based on 440 for the E's, the F WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE 433. THIS IS 28 CENTS (almost 1/3 of a fret) FLAT OF THE NOTE AN EQUALLY TEMPERED KEYBOARD WOULD PLAY. Yeah, you can tune such that the A+F position C#Maj chord is in tune and fudge it with the bar to be closer, but as soon as you play that open F note along with the piano, you will understand why a lot of folks try to approach 440 as close as possible.

What it boils down to is that there are certain combinations that are way off when you tune all the beats out of the open, A+B, and A+F positions. Also, when you add the 9th, 7th, 2nd, and 1st strings, some really interesting (and not always pleasant) things can happen.

Just my 2 cents (pun intended).

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 07 January 2003 at 07:54 AM.]

rhcarden · Post by **rhcarden** » 7 Jan 2003 8:59 am

The problems I have with JT is you cannot us all the possible chords in each position. For instance if the A-6th sound good, the E-9th sucks. I find that if I play a 3rd my ear will cause me to move the bar so that I'm in tune with the band, then when I play a 5th and it's sharp. I've been tuning all notes as close to 440 as possible since the mid 70s. Does it sound in tune? No! if I'm alone, but with the band and on recordings, it sound great. I believe, that is where it counts!

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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7

Neil Lang · Post by **Neil Lang** » 7 Jan 2003 9:09 am

Larry, guess I'll have to listen & experiment a bit more with what you are saying. It will be easy, my wife plays keyboards in our Duo. But it seems to me if I tune the E's sharp they will sound sharp to the piano when played open just as the F would sound flat???????? Am I missing something here? Thanks for the input.
Neil
Sho-Bud Super Pro 8X4, Nashville 1000

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 7 Jan 2003 11:54 am

I tune by ear for the most part. After all music is something that we use our ears to experience.

For those of you that think you can use your eyes to tune and sound good walk over to that electric piano and check a few low notes and then middle notes and then high notes. A piano is not 440. Then check the different individual notes in a guitar chord. Its freakin hopeless !

Then throw out your electronic tuner and train your ears and hands to make it sound good.

Bob

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 7 Jan 2003 1:36 pm

Neil,
The issue is HOW SHARP or HOW FLAT. Our ears can tolerate 1 Hz (4 cents) or more variation without sounding GLARINGLY out of tune. The 5 or 6 Hz (20-24 cents) I described before is noticeable by ANYONE.

The point is to bring the E's up some so you don't have to flat the G#s so much. Same holds true with the C#s and Fs.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro