Steel Players- If I only had the evidence?

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 21 Dec 2012 4:46 am

Lyle Bradford wrote:Is Jazz still a product that sells or are they shut out by the industry as is what we call true country music. By far some of the most interesting reading I have seen in a long time. Just makes one wonder where is the steel really going to end up in the whole scheme of things. If one is not pursuing their own musical desires how can our instrument grow in other genres of music.

Jazz is not a genre that sells, but that doesn't stop musicians from wanting to play it. Even those who don't desire to play it on the bandstand still try to learn from it. It is those wonderful colors from jazz harmony which have elevated every genre of music it's touched.

The steel guitar may not be the right instrument in the context of the traditional jazz instrumentation, but the scope of jazz music is so wide that there certainly is a place for it, as has been already proven. Guitarists from the ECM label (Frisell, Terje Rypdal, etc.) and guys like Holdsworth all bring elements of sound borrowed from steel guitar. A steel guitar in the hands of someone with the ability to improvise and a thorough knowledge of harmony is even better. But there is a huge stylistic gap between that and what is usually considered jazz by steel guitarists.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 21 Dec 2012 9:16 am

Mike Neer wrote:But there is a huge stylistic gap between that and what is usually considered jazz by steel guitarists.

Mike,

IMO, Jazz in itself can not be defined by your standards, or mine, no more than Country can....Jazz is subjective as is all forms of music and is much more inclusive than any single players definition.. Its the subjective tastes of individual musicians that expand the forms they choose to play through multitudes of different influences...So I disagree with these blanket conclusions you make about other steel guitarists and the art form of Jazz.......I don't believe your ideas, or mine on the subject, debating what's hip, deep, or harmonically pleasing in Jazz can be more on target than those you imply don't correctly understand what Jazz is?

Paul

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 21 Dec 2012 9:36 am

Paul, I'm not trying to define what is hip, although maybe it came across like that, but what I'm saying is in my experiences with other steel players a large majority are not very much into avant-garde music or contemporary forms. It's an observation, that's all. But it was a blanket statement that looking back I regret making.

Frank Montmarquet · Post by **Frank Montmarquet** » 21 Dec 2012 10:14 am

But for many, jazz stops around right around the release of Kind Of Blue, or so it seems.

Interesting you say that, around that time we also have, Take Five and Giant Steps; and not too much time passed before Getz/Gilberto.

And then...

robert kramer · Post by **robert kramer** » 21 Dec 2012 10:18 am

Speaking of "Kind of Blue" and Lenny Breau - the first time I saw Lenny Breau he was working a solo at the Bluebird Cafe in Nashville. He got up there and went right into "All Blues." It took me while to pick up on the fact he was playing the Paul Chambers bass line - the Bill Evans piano vamp and the horn section line - ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Through it all he just sat there smiling at the audience like it was nothing - not even looking down at the guitar.

Here's "All Blues" if you want to hear what he was doing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5IlQtW33Zk

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 21 Dec 2012 10:25 am

At the risk of being the High Plains Topic Drifter here's a nifty Flash animation of "Giant Steps".

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 21 Dec 2012 10:26 am

Frank Montmarquet wrote:
But for many, jazz stops around right around the release of Kind Of Blue, or so it seems.
Interesting you say that, around that time we also have, Take Five and Giant Steps; and not too much time passed before Getz/Gilberto.

And then...

Are you asking me, "and then what?"

And then Miles' '60s quintet with Wayne Shorter, Coltrane's Love Supreme, Larry Young's Unity, Woody Shaw, Joe Henderson, Herbie Hnacock, John McLaughlin, the entire ECM catalog, Pharoah Sanders, Bitches' Brew, Ornette Coleman....the language has changed significantly several times.

Stuart Legg · Post by **Stuart Legg** » 21 Dec 2012 10:49 am

Since I don’t play an instrument and I can only transcribe what I hear to instruments.

I noticed early on that when transcribing a guitar, piano or horn jazz phrases even when there seemed to be a deliberate effort on the part of the musician to play the same phrases there was always some variance in the number and the order of the notes from instrument to instrument.

It accrued to me that in Jazz like all endeavors in life we tend to take the path of least resistance.

The piano guitar horn and steal guitar are all floating down the Jazz stream and due to the uniqueness and coupled with unconscious seeking of this path of least resistance each instrument tends to float down it’s own peculiar path within the stream.

If one instrument tries to take the path of the other it starts bouncing of rocks (becomes difficult) so the captain tends to seek the safe path.

So I generally transcribe to the path of least resistance and add the things to the jazz phrase the instrument readily gives me and take out the thing that it doesn’t.

Guess what that’s pretty much what I hear when Jazz is played on the PSG no matter who’s playing.

But there are a lot of little paths within each of those paths of least resistance and some folks are just a little better than others at finding those really good routes that sometimes are just impossible for the rest of us to map.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 21 Dec 2012 10:52 am

Mike Neer wrote:Susan Alcorn is the most incredible player and proponent of out-of-the-box playing of the steel guitar I've ever heard. I'm constantly inspired by her. She is one of the greatest improviser's this instrument has ever known.

I agree. She and Dave Easley are in a class by themselves.

Ron Brennan · Post by **Ron Brennan** » 21 Dec 2012 11:07 am

Really a great thread! So much so, I find myself compelled to add a reply! To fellow Steel player, Lyle Bradford, I offer my personal & humble observations:
It seems to me, Jazz, like a fine Scotch, Art, etc. for many of us is an “acquired taste”. The art of making, listening, learning about Jazz can be a long and very enjoyable endeavor. My journey with Jazz started at a young age just by listening to a radio show in NYC called “Symphony Sid way back in the 50’s. There are all sorts of genres of Jazz, from improvisations of standards, including C & W, Scat, Bee Bop, original compositions, etc, etc. A good starting point is Miles Davis “Kind of Blue” produced in 1959 or Cannonball Adderley’s 1959 “This Here”, “Mercy, Mercy, Mercy” both of which have an underlying Blues feel to them…or Ahmad Jamal’s “Poinciana” ….and just like any music genre, C&W, Pop, String, included, there are some types of productions I do not like, for example Bee Bop or Scat does nothing for me. There are literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Jazz renditions one can “acquire” a taste for. It’s swilling to hear Jazz musicians do an improvisation, whether it be on Piano, Sax, Guitar, Trumpet, violin, Drums, on and on…….and of course, Pedal Steel Guitar. IMHO: PSG or non-pedal absolutely is and belongs in the Jazz field. Even a steel guitar favorite, Sleepwalk done by guitarist Larry Carlton, found a Jazz rendition. And guess what? Steel guitar has been a Jazz instrument, going way back to the 40’s, 50’s, etc. To me, if you are an accomplished musician or not, you can appreciate the talent of any artist, especially with a Steel Guitar! Why just listen to Jody Carver back in the 50’s, Buddy, Julian, even one of the finest soul reaching PSG players ever, Jimmy Day…There is not nor should there be any Bias on any instrument in the hands of a talented musician. We need to have a paradigm shift when it comes to this issue. If there is a problem for Pedal Steel Guitar and for that matter, all musicians today, with a few exceptions, is that today’s modern new music is weighted more to being Rhythm driven rather than Melody driven.
As it has been said, Notes are Notes, and music is music, it just takes a little time to Acquire your particular taste for a style Jazz………Jazz is a colossal field of music that awaits your enjoyment. It’s there for the taking………. My best to you…….TX

Rgds and Blue Skies,

Ron

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 21 Dec 2012 11:26 am

If there are other steel players out there in the kind of territory Dave Easley is working in, I'd sure like to know about them!

I'd love to see someone get Easley and Pharoah Sanders together.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 21 Dec 2012 11:30 am

Mike Perlowin wrote:
Mike Neer wrote:Susan Alcorn is the most incredible player and proponent of out-of-the-box playing of the steel guitar I've ever heard. I'm constantly inspired by her. She is one of the greatest improviser's this instrument has ever known.
I agree. She and Dave Easley are in a class by themselves.

They are 2 of my favorite players.

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 21 Dec 2012 11:46 am

Stuart they don't seem very interested in your theory of “The Path of Least Resistance”
Why didn’t you share this with Albert during his failing attempts to formulate the space-time singularity beyond the event horizon of a black hole”?

Lyle Bradford · Post by **Lyle Bradford** » 21 Dec 2012 2:24 pm

The reason I ask the question is I have been trying to find and learn some Jazz progressions for 6 string guitar in like a rythym setting. It seems to me that is where it starts and the the improvisations come from within ones own ability to convey what they are feeling. I love the jazz chord work.

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 21 Dec 2012 2:29 pm

Now just imagine for a moment that you (me) were around at the time of the "invention" of say, the violin. Now let's assume the violin evolved from some other instrument. It didn't spring forth fully grown, did it? And the music that is played on the violin has been evolving over centuries, right? One can play all sorts of different musical styles on a violin, right?
Same with the steel. Pedals or not. Only difference is, some of the "inventors" of the steel are still around. They are right here, on this web-site.
Holy-mackerel!
The steel has some catching up to do. It is in the country box according to the general public. We know better.
Just keep evolving and eventually, the rest of the world will catch on to how great this machine is.
We are just scratching the surface.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 21 Dec 2012 3:01 pm

I personally believe everyone has something to say and to understand how subjective judging who plays the best Jazz is, we should listen to and study these three distinct Jazz directions to understand what is meant by the descriptive terms used in this thread.....

Old school composition played using contemporary harmonies and Improv's.

Featuring Jerry Bergonzi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EjJvRJwfkk

Oscar Peterson live....Bebop also old school Jazz form: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0_1LWgGuLo

Avant-Garde http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpPraEdnKjY also Old school.....

On the movie track Dr. T and the Women there was a spot in the movie where the producer wanted us to improvise to what we saw on film. He wanted it totally free form.... The avant-garde moment was during the tornado scene and the only guidelines was to express violence and confusion.....I knew what to play because I had listened to Ornette Coleman's. anyway it was fun to play but horrible to listen to much like the avant-garde track above.

Paul

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 21 Dec 2012 3:14 pm

To understand how subjective judging Jazz directions becomes listen to these two tracks....

Old school composition played using contemporary harmonies and Improv's.

Jerry Bergonzi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EjJvRJwfkk

Link for track #2???

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 21 Dec 2012 3:32 pm

Sorry Gary.....Link should work now.

For kicks here's a modern day guitarist pursuing old school approach.

Guitarist playing along with a recording of an Oscar Peterson solo...Truly amazing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz44BqxRobc

Enjoy,

Paul

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 21 Dec 2012 3:35 pm

To understand how subjective? Judging Jazz?
Here is a Album that was a rage wayback in some circles and I thought it sounded like a 6th grade music class while the teacher was out.
Based on this I'd say I don't have a clue about Jazz.
click here

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 21 Dec 2012 4:28 pm

Paul, in the spirit of friendly discussion, no one said anything about who plays the "best" jazz. I simply implied that many, if not most steel guitarists have a somewhat old-fashioned viewpoint of what jazz is. I get the feeling you don't agree.

I take it you don't care very much for Ornette Coleman. Here is a track that I consider to be one of the greatest recorded jazz tracks ever--maybe you know this one, called Lonely Woman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNbD1JIH344

Here is another example of his brilliance, playing on Joe Henry's track "Richard Pryor Addresses a Tearful Nation". Ornette's solo again is thing of beauty--no anger or discord (it's a long tune, so Ornette's solo comes in after the 3:00 mark):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vii5ydVSNec

What does this all have to do with steel guitar? I don't know--it just proves that we are all motivated internally by different sounds. What is playing out of the box anyway? I hate the idea of being boxed in.

The avant-garde clip you used as an example is not anything I would ever listen to for more than a minute.

I believe that players like you, Buddy Emmons, Curly, Joaquin, Lloyd, Sol, etc. are the greatest steel guitarists ever, but I still think the instrument can go further, that's all I'm saying.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 21 Dec 2012 10:27 pm

Mike,

I'm glad you see this as a friendly debate. I also see it that way......Just so nobody thinks I'm getting sideways here, I should take the time to clarify what it is that influences my Jazz tastes.

Occasionally I listen to and appreciate Ornette Coleman as one, if not the best at this style of Jazz composition........But, personally I prefer the avant garde recordings of other players better...Players like Branford, Wynton, Wayne Shorter, Keith Jarrett, etc......Kind of like favoring the sound of Haggard and Jones best but never ignoring the brilliance behind a well played Tommy Collins song.

Within Jazz, as a rule I prefer improvisations that are more melodically focused and instead of creating tension through modal scales, I prefer the sound of triadic tones and permutations vs scale or modal sequences, I love the sound of upper structure notes over the chord center, and I really enjoy the rhythmically precise directions found in Jazz by players like Mike Stern, Alan Holdsworth, and Oscar Peterson......I love the melodic and polyrhythmic compositions of writers like Brecker, Bergonzi, Corea, Martino, Hancock etc.....And Keith Jarrett's trio series playing all standards is my favorite to just sit back, listen, and enjoy.

With advancing the steel guitar down the road I believe where we differ is in the definition of what "farther" is.......I say this subjectively because I don't consider the avant garde approach to be anything but a different form of Jazz.....Just like todays Country is different from all the past eras....As I hear it some new music sounds better on steel and some old music can never be surpassed.

Paul

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 22 Dec 2012 1:29 am

For kicks here's a modern day guitarist pursuing old school approach......

I've been kicked.....

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 22 Dec 2012 5:21 am

Gary Lee Gimble wrote:
For kicks here's a modern day guitarist pursuing old school approach......
I've been kicked.....

Gary,

Its pretty amazing.....Harmonically and rhythmically that solo has what I love about Jazz.....I hope everyone notices how he does not use tone to cover up any technical inadequacies and how he does not fudge through a single phrase. Glad you loved it.

To get back on topic.....The almost surgical accuracy of his picking technique and the fire behind every one of Oscars note choices reminds me of the types of cleanly played and tonally clear improv's I heard from Buddy. I wish everyone could have heard Buddy in those DJ convention jams Reece described earlier.

Paul

Craig Schwartz · Post by **Craig Schwartz** » 22 Dec 2012 5:25 am

Stuart, You`re quote made more sense than you probably imagine, The fact that we all have a great respect for the Top shelf, hands on players that do this for a living, They may have forgotten the simplest little thing somewhere and it stumps them all. I dont know what that is but its ok. Each and everyone of us have rocks in our path, This converstion seems to have giant boulders in the way, And I mean no disrespect, When we re-invent the wheel on the PSG, We add a copedent change or a pedal so we can take the path of least resistance and sound mystifying and correct at the same time.

I`m not trying to hijak the thread, but this lifetime of learning our instrument seems to relate singingly from the Alpha to the Omega, It will be here a long time, I really liked your post, To me it made the most sense, Its a little out there but Pride along with dollars seems to create a beautiful shooting star that will eventually burn out and fall back to earth. This star may also be one of the rocks that the captain had to vere away from.
You never know till you`ve been there...

Way to go Stuart, Thumbs up

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 22 Dec 2012 9:03 am

Franklin wrote:....
With advancing the steel guitar down the road I believe where we differ is in the definition of what "farther" is.......I say this subjectively because I don't consider the avant garde approach to be anything but a different form of Jazz.....Just like todays Country is different from all the past eras....As I hear it some new music sounds better on steel and some old music can never be surpassed.

Paul

Paul, I don't think we are far apart. Like I said earlier, I think that with the nature of the steel guitar and all its harmonic possibilities steel guitarists would be best served by advancing their knowledge of modern harmonies. That was really the crux of my argument all along.

We have gone so far beyond bebop harmony (although as Hal Galper said, "if you can play bebop you can play anything"), that French Impressionism, from Debussy to Honegger has become an important place to visit. That is what I mean about going farther.

As far as avant-garde, my particular taste in it is much more conservative. I am very fond of Marilyn Crispell and Paul Bley and Geri Allen, who maybe to real afficionadoes of avant-garde music might seem rather mainstream.

Paul Bley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcqykkeXkkc

As a non-pedal player, the possibilities are so much more limited; however, the subtractive method of playing smaller chords using extensions and upper voices, like Allan Holdsworth for instance, really intrigues me and excites me.