A pedal + F lever problem - common?

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 11 Dec 2002 7:11 am

Just moved up to a guitar with the F lever and am anxiously practicing that great A pedal + F lever major chord inversion that was unavailable on my old 3+1 - however, I've noticed that I'm having problems getting that A pedal + F lever combination to be in tune. The individual corresponding pulls, according to my my tuner, are fine... The open major chord and the A+B pedal major chord are also fine... Any input here? Thanks, fellas...

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 11 Dec 2002 7:15 am

Hey Nathan,
What settings do you tune the raise on you F lever to? Thanks, JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 11 Dec 2002 7:18 am

Jerry,

I use a regular ol' stompbox Boss tuner - which doesn't accurately read individual "cents". I just get 'er to read a solid "F" when I engage the lever and away I go.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 11 Dec 2002 7:19 am

Yup, very common problem we all deal with. Most of us will tune that F lever a tad flat to compensate. For instance on Jeff Newman's chart (which I happen to use), the open E is tuned to 442 and the F to 434. If you're tuning E to 440, try 432 for the F note. Of course this will vary with how you're tuning your B string and A pedal, so you should use one consistent system. Maybe pay a visit to Jeff's website www.jeffran.com and try his E9 tuning system and then see if you feel better in the morning.

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http://www.jimcohen.com
www.beatswalkin.com

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 11 December 2002 at 07:22 AM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 11 Dec 2002 7:22 am

Here's a direct link to Jeff Newman's tuning charts: http://www.jeffran.com/tuning/tuning.htm

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 11 Dec 2002 7:26 am

Thanks, Jim. I hadn't visited Jeff's website myself in awhile and it looks like he's changed his #s again; slight tweakings. But the general point remains: tune the F lever flat.

(unless you're like Emmons and can sound great tuning everything "straight up", but I can't make that work for me.)

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 11 Dec 2002 7:27 am

Wow, fellas - thanks for all the rapid-fire help. Aside from just appreciating the information, it does me a great amount of good to know I'm not just imagining these little glitches - "I'm not alone!" ha ha

Don Walters · Post by **Don Walters** » 11 Dec 2002 7:36 am

Also, if you play the A+F combo right over the fret marker, the entire chord will probably be slightly flat! You may need to "cheat up" slightly to get in tune.

Tony Orth · Post by **Tony Orth** » 11 Dec 2002 9:52 am

What an interesting thread. I've always had to "cheat up" with the A/F combination but never new that was somewhat normal. I thought it was just me.

Thanks Don for that comment.

Tony

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 11 Dec 2002 9:59 am

Nathan, if you temper tune your going to have to tune your F lever WAY flat and sharp the bar move as Don said above. Try tuning it by ear, then check it on your meter for cents. If your guitar has cabinet drop on the E-s and sixth string(most do) you will be down at least minus twenty cents on the meter. I had a local teacher here who had played for thirty years who didn't tell me this. It really peed me off when I first started learning. Also, I would suggest that you get yourself a good tuner that reads cents very clearly. I use a Boss TU-12H.Recognixing your guitars tuning idiosynchrosies on a meter can be very valuable. Also, tuning by ear.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 11 December 2002 at 10:01 AM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 11 December 2002 at 10:02 AM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 11 December 2002 at 10:05 AM.]

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 11 Dec 2002 10:07 am

As someone who tunes the beats out, I find problem lies in the sixth string going flat from cabinet drop. I understand there is a remedy for this but I don't know what it is. Perhaps a rod on the F lever attached to the 6th string that slightly raises it?

Don Walters · Post by **Don Walters** » 11 Dec 2002 11:11 am

Tony, guess where I learned about the "slightly flat" A+F position? Right here on this wonderful resource called the Steel Guitar Forum. I also thought it was me!

If I had known 44 years ago just some of what I've learned here .......

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 11 Dec 2002 11:33 am

One of the reasons the F has to be tuned that far below equal temperament (A=440) is that the 3rd tone of the scale is (1) a component of a major triad, so you use it often and (2) to be a 'sweet' sounding chord, your ear wants to hear the 3rd about 16 cents or so flat. Looking at the E9 chord positions, the primary ones are NP (no pedals -- key of E); A+B (key of A); A+F (key of C#). Follow the logic:
* we tune the open E with A+B pressed (this corrects for cabinet deflection) -- without the pedals it will be slightly sharp of standard.
* the G# needs to be flat by 2-3Hz (10-15 cents)
* tune A to 440
* the C# is the THIRD TONE of the A major chord, so it must also be slightly flat
NOW, THE PLOT SICKENS . . .
* to tune the A+F position, the root key is C# major. The C# on 5 and 10 is ALREADY TUNED FLAT and it becomes the ROOT OF THE A+F position chord. Guess what's the THIRD??? Yep, the F. So it ends up on most people's charts between 20 and 30 cents flat
--PUT THIS IN PERSPECTIVE -- 30 cents is almost 1/3 of a fret.

One solution is to tune the thirds a little less flat (that's what I do). Generally my thirds are 5 cents or so flat. This isn't straight up Equal Temperament tuning like some propose, but it's a compromise that minimizes some tuning problems. You may want to look at Jeff's chart and take the deviations (+ and - numbers) and cut them in half. (rather than -14 cents try -7) That may be too much for you, but you need to do the experiment to know. Recognize that there'll be a range that you find acceptable and a point where the hair on the back of your neck stands on end. At that point you may have gone further than your ears will tolerate.

Record yourself often and listen critically for intonation. If you don't sound out of tune, you're doing something right.

And, yes, most of us do 'cheat up' the A+F.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 11 December 2002 at 11:36 AM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 11 Dec 2002 11:48 am

I put a raise rod on my 6th string connected to the F lever E>F raise. Some would call it a compensator I guess. It raises the 6th just a tad wee bit. Makes 4, 5, 6 sound good together in that position. The 3rd string doesn't seem to need it.
Just a thought. YMMV

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 11 Dec 2002 12:17 pm

Is that on your Sierra, Pete?
How far does the 6th string detune when you just press A? (that's the reason I went to a wound sixth)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 11 Dec 2002 12:33 pm

I don't have the cabinet drop problem on my Dekley, but I would think the G# drop would be greater from the B-C# pedal than from the E-F lever.

If that is the case, the compensator for your G# string would be better placed on the B-C# pedal. Then your C# minor would be in tune better as well.

[This message was edited by Jim Smith on 11 December 2002 at 12:37 PM.]

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 11 Dec 2002 1:07 pm

Holy crud! I had no idea what I was getting us all into! I honestly thank all of you for your input - this thread is going to come out to a month's worth of reading and tinkering for me! ha ha This is a great example of the forum at its best - great exchange!

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 11 Dec 2002 1:27 pm

Excellent Larry.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 11 Dec 2002 2:37 pm

Yes, Larry, that is on my Sierra. As fate would have it, I live near the Sierra factory so I can grab parts for experiments like this pretty easily. Th Sierra Session model is real easy to try ideas out on also (without screwing up a bunch of other stuff!).
I'm not sure how much the G# drops when I enguage A+F or A alone. I can check it tomorrow.
I typically tune the A+B change so string 5 sounds sweet to my ear, then go to A+F and tune the E>F change 'till it sounds good on strings 4 and 5, then I add string 6 to A+F and tune that so it sounds right.
It is such a slight raise that I sometimes wonder if I'm halusa-hearing (halusanating?

), but on a tuner it shows a slight sharpening.
Go figer!

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 11 December 2002 at 02:38 PM.]

Bob Blair · Post by **Bob Blair** » 11 Dec 2002 3:49 pm

Lots of good advice here. I'm certainly one of a large number of people who tune that "f" flat - that is what happens if you tune it up to a nice sounding interval by ear. I would second what Don Walters said about the chord being flat if you play it exactly over the fret.

Yes, by all means get a fancier tuner and try the Newman charts. They seem to work for a lot of people. As time goes on and you get more comfortable with the instrument, you may feel more comfortable trying different methods.

There is a lot of info about tuning on the forum, and some longstanding and very interesting debates. And no single correct set of answers that is right for everyone.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 11 Dec 2002 5:39 pm

Larry Bell is KING...nathan that is the tuning proceedure I sent you isn't it??
Larry speaks the Truth and so well explained.
Jim speaks the truth too...as if you have a plain sixth string and that sixth string is right next to the fifth string and when you push the "a" pedal down..than the axle is pulled on and a HIGHLY sensitive plain sixth string right next to it will go FLAT....so either you have a great guitar with a well supported axle like Jim's Dekley....or you go to a wound sixth(not so sensitive) or you compensate on the pedal that is doing the damage to strings around it>via the "a" pedal to the 6th string.
Go get'um.
Ricky[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 11 December 2002 at 05:41 PM.]

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 11 Dec 2002 6:12 pm

OK guys, I'm at home with the axe and will consult the Newman charts as well as experiment with bar placement/cheating up. Just seems like a cruel irony that this one cool inversion that brings so many great things together would be the cause of such headaches. All in good time, I guess.

Ricky, I don't think I ever got a tuning chart from you, but you did share some recommendations for an E9 copedant (since I bought this Mullen with an unorthodox copedant)... and yes, Ricky - I will be taking you up on your guitar tune-up services after the holidays (once I get my $ situation together!)...

Thanks so much, guys. I was so pleased to get so many nice posts and emails to help me out. At least I know I'm asking some of the right questions! ha ha

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 11 Dec 2002 8:06 pm

Jus' another can o' worms in the work-a-day life of a steel guitarist...

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 12 Dec 2002 7:43 am

Hey Nathan,
I'd like to weigh in on this one too. For many years I used the Jeff Newman tempered tuning chart and was fairly happy with it except when I worked with keyboard players and multiple guitars. I did a lot of trio jobs for a long time and my steel sounded fine until I went to work at the Foothill Club in California. We had keyboards a couple of guitars and an occasional fiddle or horn player. I constantly had to compensate by moving my bar off the fret and at the open position I was always flat. I talked to Art Sanchez about it and he told me he always tuned everything to 440 which I tried and I sounded more in tune but not quite. I experimented with it and for a good while now I've been using a system where I tune the E's and B's and the B pedal raise to 440. Strings 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 9, ll, to 438. I tune the B to C# raises and 4th & 8th string raises and lowers to 438 and it works very well for me in 99% of my playing situations. Micky Byrne in England tried this tuning method and is having good luck with it too. You don't have so many settings to remember. I use a Boss TU-12 tuner also which has the needle you can see clearly.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 12 Dec 2002 9:07 am

Thanks for that synopsis, Jerry. It'll just be a question of getting into different playing situations/instrumentation - as you mention - and figuring out how detailed the solution needs to be.

Everyone: I tuned the Fs down a hair last night and worked on "cheating up" and the results are already a lot better; For my current [LOUD] bar-band gig, and given my tuner's limitations, I can live with a "ballpark" in-tune sound on that A+F combo for the time being, but it'll be a different when a recording session comes around...