Emmons original P/P vs. Legrande tone?

Jeff Sherman · Post by **Jeff Sherman** » 24 Nov 2012 12:12 pm

Hello all,
I was doing research on this forum and found that the newer Legrande model was introduced to improve on the design of the guitar and reduce cost. I was wondering due to the changes in the guitar if that changed the tonal quality of the instrument? ? I am strongly considering a original Emmons P/P mid 70s D10 for my first ever big purchase pedal steel with tone being my first interest. I do not plan on constantly reconfiguring the guitar and even considering something strange like having a dual E9 configuration not using a C6 tuning ( one original Tuning and another custom of some sorts ) if there is such a thing as guitar players using dual E9 configurations. If there isn't a difference in tone i can add the Legrande as a possible option.

Jeff
Atwater, CA

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 24 Nov 2012 12:18 pm

There is a difference in tone. The LeGrande is very similar though.

Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 24 Nov 2012 12:30 pm

I have a LeGrande III and it sure does not sound like a push pull. It sounded pretty bad to my ears without any effects. A couple months ago I had the pickups changed and 705's were installed. That made a big difference in the tome of this guitar.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 25 Nov 2012 1:29 am

Be aware that if the PP is original, it will have single-coil pickups which will hum noticeably.

This might not matter if you don't play in recording studios, but it's something to consider.

The single-coil pickups are part of the PP sound, and it's not easy finding a humbucking pickup that doesn't compromise that sound.

The nearest I can get to a single-coil sound on my PP is a George L 5 way pickup wired in parallel.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=206994

Dyke Corson · Post by **Dyke Corson** » 28 Nov 2012 9:09 pm

Emmons humbuckings sound good on Emmons guitars. I believe the model is 808N. I have them on push-pulls and they came on my Legrande III. The Legrande does not sound like a push pull, but it's the closest all pull I've had to that sound. It does sound like an Emmons guitar

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 4 Dec 2012 9:54 pm

I agree with Dyke.
The Emmons "108" is a great sounding humbucking pickup. The single coil will always be the best sounding to my ears, but the 108 is the next best sounding as far as I'm concerned and superior in noise control. I use the 108 humbucker in my own guitar. Great for recording purposes.

In my shop, we see a lot of them come thru with Lawrence type pickups. However, be aware of clearance problems with the Lawrence pickups when using in Legrande III guitars. The Legrande L-III will require slight modification in order to clear strings properly.

Dave Robbins
The Steel Guitar Shop
stlgtrtech@comcast.net

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 5 Dec 2012 7:21 am

I've had both, they sound different to me. I ended up with a P/P.

Austin Tripp · Post by **Austin Tripp** » 5 Dec 2012 12:18 pm

Its nearly impossible to compare tone to a p/p. I've owned a 74 all original and currently own a 98 LL3 with the emmons 108 humbuckers. Tone is similar but not close to that of a p/p. Both have their own distinct tone. But in the end both are Emmons and both sound wonderful. I would recommend a Legrande model because of the modern changer. If something was to.ever happen, it wouldn't be an act of Congress to fix lol. Just my opinion.

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 6 Dec 2012 4:46 am

Jeff, If you've never played a push/pull, you're welcome to come to Fresno and check out mine.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... nson+today

Doug Earnest · Post by **Doug Earnest** » 6 Dec 2012 6:03 am

It would be a really good idea to spend some time behind a push-pull before you ever buy one. They can be made to play well, but one that isn't adjusted correctly can be a real let down. Most of them that I have played sound good and some have been wonderful.

Peter Freiberger · Post by **Peter Freiberger** » 6 Dec 2012 6:27 am

Jeff, I'm a little closer than Fresno. Los Feliz (walking distance from Atwater). You're welcome to compare a P/P and an all pull MCI at my place some time.

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 6 Dec 2012 7:04 am

- "Sounds just like a Strat"
- "Sounds just like a Marshall"
- "Sounds just like a push-pull"

If you want push-pull tone then get one. Their cost are in the ballpark of other manufacturer's pro models, especially those push-pulls from the late 70's and early 80's.

The problem is that most of the push-pulls you get are out of adjustment, all too often having been adjusted by someone who takes their first look at the undercarriage and says, "Oh, why, this simple. I'll just move these collars here and tighten these 'loose' springs here." And then the next thing you know the steel is out of adjustment (with a resulting bad tone) for decades until a real pro push-pull repairman finally rescues it.

The key is to buy a push-pull from a respected and reputable source or to buy the guitar and then get it to a TRUE repairman for adjustment and or tune-up.

I take all my push-pulls to Dave Peterson in Wheeling IL outside Chicago.

Peter Freiberger · Post by **Peter Freiberger** » 6 Dec 2012 10:17 am

Oops, wrong Atwater. Who knew? Well, you're still welcome to come by if you find yourself in L.A.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 6 Dec 2012 3:41 pm

I would recommend the LeGrande for a 1st guitar. Don't get me wrong, I love push-pulls. I've owned six or seven and rebuilt 3 of them. They sound great, play well (if set up properly) and are reliable.

The push-pull changer system is a bit quirky, and is easily screwed up by those who aren't familiar with adjusting them. This means that if you are not a tinkerer or do not live close to a P/P mechanic, you may find the guitar frustrating. The LeGrande sounds similar to a P/P,(at least as close as any all-pull guitar has ever gotten), but they are tonally different.The LeGrande has a more modern pristine sound and is not quite as throaty as a P/P IMHO.

It's a toss up which sounds better, but I guarantee you won't go wrong tone-wise with either.

Jeff Sherman · Post by **Jeff Sherman** » 6 Dec 2012 9:40 pm

After listening to this tribute to John Hughey here >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnVnHqHucRA
I was also impressed with the sound of the newer Emmons model Lashley Legrande III but I am absolutely sure I want to purchase a emmons. I also got to thinking that because it is a newer design, it would have more tuning flexibility and easier to work on.

For a amplifier, I do not own a " pedal steel amp " like a Nashville 400. I only own a Marshall half stack and a Line 6 dual 10 inch amp. I may consider trading or selling the line 6 for a real 15 inch pedal steel amp like a Nashville 400.

Jeff
Atwater, CA

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 7 Dec 2012 6:28 am

Speaking of amps, you know, the NV400 has pretty much earned itself a place as being a standard of the steel guitar world. You really can't go wrong with one.

I played through them exclusively for 20+ years in a million club dates. I still have a number of them and, although I use another setup now, I often take one to gigs where a straight-ahead, good sounding, simple setup is all I want.

So, if you're thinking of a first steel amp, a NV400 is pretty hard to beat.

Charles Curtis · Post by **Charles Curtis** » 7 Dec 2012 9:30 am

I have a PP that Billy Cooper once set up for Buddy Emmons. I play it straight from the pedal to a 1965 Fender Twin Reverb/w JBL speakers and I've never heard a better tone in my life. I'm sure that Billy has other PP for sale and IMO, he does work that is second to none. Merry Christmas.

Bobby Snell · Post by **Bobby Snell** » 8 Dec 2012 7:13 am

Jeff, set your amp to clean and connect to different speakers. Your half-stack probably has speakers voiced for classic Marshall crunch. Try some speakers voiced for clearer tones, wider response.

As long as you have enough headroom, any good amp can be used effectively. Don't be afraid to twist some knobs.

Nashville 400s certainly served me well for over a decade, but they're not made any more. Lots of new equipment with warrenties, including the wonderful Peavey lines of amplification: tube and solid state amp heads, or signal processer/preamps and power amps. And Black Widows in cabinets.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 8 Dec 2012 9:08 am

There isn't a big difference in tone between the two, in my opinion. You can feel a difference when you play them, but I can't hear it from the audience or reliably tell the difference on recordings. A lot of things are like that.

The pedal action on a push-pull is different, so your muscles are reacting differently. There is no isolation of senses in the human body. You can't objectively evaluate tones while you are playing the instrument.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 8 Dec 2012 9:19 am

There isn't a big difference in tone between the two, in my opinion. You can feel a difference when you play them, but I can't hear it from the audience or reliably tell the difference on recordings. A lot of things are like that.

1) Quite reliably, people fail the blindfold tests as to "which was which."
2) And also quite reliably, people really, really like the way they sound to themselves, as long as they've decided to beforehand.
3) Somewhat reliably, someone will answer this "well I can tell that great push-pull tone anywhere." See #1.

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