C6 - moving a 'pedal' to a 'knee'(?)

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 22 Nov 2002 8:29 am

IMHO the most valuable aspect of a knee lever is that it can be combined with any pedal. By this criterion the boo-wah pedal is a poor choice for a knee lever, because it is rarely combined with other pedals.

A better choice would be the pedal that lowers 5 G -> -F#. However, if you want to pull 2 or 3 additional strings, it may feel to stiff or long for a knee lever. Better might be to pull only that 5th string, but add the useful whole step drop to --F natural, with a good half stop at -F#.

My choice for a knee lever would be the pedal that raises 2 E -> +F and lowers 6 E -> -Eb. It is an easy pull for a knee lever. Also it allows the opposite knee lever to do the opposite pull 2 E -> -Eb and 6 -> + F.

Also I like 4 A -> ++B with a half stop at Bb.

b0b has posted my tuning at http://b0b.com/tunings/ebovine.html#C6 altho P10 and RKL have changed since then.

Don Walters · Post by **Don Walters** » 22 Nov 2002 8:46 am

I'm a complete novice at C6 so this may be a dumb idea, but I have been wondering lately, what are the implications of switching the standard P4 and P7 with each other? If indeed the P5/P7 2-foot combo is very common, moving P7 to P4 would put them right beside each other

??[This message was edited by Don Walters on 22 November 2002 at 08:47 AM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 22 Nov 2002 8:52 am

....decisions....decisions....!

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 22 Nov 2002 9:03 am

P4&5, P5&6, P6&7, and P7&8 are common combinations as is P5&7. With five standard pedals, whether you make any changes or not, you're going to have some awkward combinations. Pick a setup you can live with for your style and work at it until it's comfortable.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 22 Nov 2002 10:12 am

what are the implications of switching the standard P4 and P7

Pedals 6,7 are a fundamental combo. You can't move 7 to 4 or you will lose the 6,7 combo.

Buddy still advocates getting the '13th' chord using two feet

Buddy Emmons plays effortlessly with two feet, but he learned this technique at a time when there were probably no other options for getting the notes that he needed. Players like Curly Chalker, Tommy White, and othes use only one foot. There is certainly nothing wrong with playing with two feet (I do, but much less now than I used to), but just keep in mind that there is "X" amount of time to practice and learn things, and this is definitely a technique that is not needed with modern copedents, whereas there are plenty of other technical abilities that are vital. I would personally rather devote my time and energy to things that are needed.

the voicing is warmer with the old method

Yes, the timbre is a little more pleasant, but we're talking about a couple chords that you would play once in a while. I just don't think that that is enough of a reason, unless you have all the time in the world, and nothing else to learn. Of course, it DOES look cool!

I lower the 3rd with my MKL

Generally speaking, even though the knee levers are located at the middle of the steel, the nomenclature is based on the knee that is controlling the lever. So you should refer to the C6 knee levers as LKL,LKV,LKR,RKL etc.etc., same as on E9. I don't think there is a standard here, but most players refer to them that way.

P4&5, P5&6, P6&7, and P7&8 are common combinations as is P5&7

It's a matter of taste I know, but I just don't consider the 4,5 combo important. All it does is provide a dissonance for a couple of chords that are readily available, but without the dissonance. I personally would never let the 4,5 combo dictate any copedent decisions. If you got it and like it, fine, but this, IMO, is definitely far less significant than the other combos that are mentioned.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 22 Nov 2002 10:39 am

I'd never thought of calling it 'MKL' until Russ Wever e-mailed me last week using that abbreviation - I thought it rather clever, and used it here to stress that I wasn't talking about a guitar with only four 'knees'. I've seen steels set up with all four doubling on C6, but I don't like to contemplate the contortion required to use LKL and P8!

As you say, Jeff, there's not a 'standard' here...

Having pondered this a little longer, I've decided that, IF I move a pedal to a 'knee', it'll be pedal 6 as Earnest suggests. Although some like the 'Boowah' on a knee, I don't see that logic - it seems to be a 'change' that's mostly used in isolation.

Who knows? Maybe the tap-dance classes will pay off, and I'll get this '5 and 7' thing down!

Thanks for all the input...

------------------
Roger Rettig

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 22 Nov 2002 12:07 pm

I set up my blond Sho-Bud Pro-I S10 3x2 to play B6.

1 C#
2 G#
3 F#
4 Eb
5 B
6 G#
7 F#
8 Eb
9 B
10 G#

Pedals:
A= String 5 and 9, B's to C
B= P5
C= P6
LKR= P7
RKL= String 5 B to Bb.

I also have P7 on LKR on my main axe, which is an S12U 8x5 setup.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 24 Nov 2002 2:05 am

On my Carter, the low C to A on the knee lever is not a problem or is the throw any longer than any other lever.

------------------
Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 24 Nov 2002 2:31 am

This is good stuff..I have been thinking about changing some C6 P's to K's for a while.

Hey Doug Seymour, if you come by for a visit at Christmas time are you bringing your Steel? I would really like to see your set-up. I'll give you a piece of candy if you do..

tp

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 24 Nov 2002 6:52 am

I might be wrong on this, but if I remember correctly, Chalker had 9 floor pedals....he duplicated pedal#5 with another pedal between pedal#7 and #8? So his pedal rack sequence was: 4-5-6-7-5-8
He could combine 4&5, 5&6, 6&7, 5&7 and also play tunes "like Hold It" with one foot by rocking back and forth from pedal#5 & #8 (which would be #8 & #9).
Dennis

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 24 Nov 2002 8:27 am

Hey Dennis, Whatever he did or how he did it?
It was good enough for me!! His C6th 1st string was E also....he never used a G or a D on top did he? Seems like some of the pedals would turn it into an A6th pretty easily. Herb Remington told me, when I met him at Carl Dixon's 1st Atlanta show.....if it hadn't been for Jerry Byrd the steel guitar world would still be playing A6th! What, no E9th?? Did Bud Isaacs do that to us guys?? or was it Nashville? or the recording
industry? Someone must've done it?? It couldn't have been us?

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 24 Nov 2002 8:34 am

Dennis, I think you can get those same combinations with P7 on a KL. 4&5 5&6 5&7 6&7
7&8. Am I right? check it out Plus you can get 5&6 w/7 (nice addition) There are probably others that I'm not thinking of at the moment. 5&6w/7 is my most used combination! Shame on me!, but I don't even
have 4 & 8 on my C6th.....less is more?? Ask
Lloyd Green? Plays beautiful E9th w/o all the bells & whistles. JB never even bothered w/pedals! Different strokes! I do think a great deal of my other 4 KLs: Bb on 4, C# on 3 & 7, Ab on 4 & B on 3. not all that far fetched! I think these are all commonly used changes on C6th nowadays.[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 24 November 2002 at 08:44 AM.][This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 24 November 2002 at 09:09 AM.][This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 24 November 2002 at 09:13 AM.]

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 24 Nov 2002 6:44 pm

Re: JEFF LAMPERT, "I just don't consider the 4/5 combo important. All it does is provide a disonance...". Thank you, Jeff! I've been waiting a long time for someone to muster the courage to say that,and you said it very eloquently!!!
~~W.C.~~

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 24 Nov 2002 7:09 pm

I think the term "MKL" will confuse a lot of novice players. I have separate left-knee levers for each neck (it just seems more comfortable to me). Nevertheless, I still use the "LKL", "LKV", and "LKR" designation when I'm talking about that second set of knee levers.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 24 Nov 2002 7:49 pm

Wayne - I'd agree about the combination, but I DO like pedal 4 on its own.

MKL: The only two people to take issue with my use of the abbreviation clearly understood what I meant by it -

!

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 24 Nov 2002 10:23 pm

When I ordered my MSA D-12 in '75, I had the Boowah(normally 8th pedal) put on the RKR and the Bowump(normally the 5th pedal) on the RKL and it worked out wonderfully. I also put the Thompson pedal(normally the 7th pedal) on the LKR and lastly, the normal lever dropping the C to B, I put that on the 7th pedal, similar to how Chalker had it. It made a great combination and may go back to that someday for my C6 work.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 25 Nov 2002 10:10 am

Re: MKL -- don't most people have three knees?

Seriously, I like the designation. I understood it immediately when I heard it.

Gary: Since I moved P8 to LKL (MKL), I find that I use it a lot with P5. If you put those changes on RKR and RKL, you can never use them together.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 25 Nov 2002 1:08 pm

MKL: The only two people to take issue with my use of the abbreviation clearly understood what I meant by it

You could post in pig latin and I would probably understand it but that doesn't mean that it is the preferred way to communicate on the Forum. The majority of players who tab knee levers in C6 use the "L", not the "M", for designating the left knee levers. I was only trying to be helpful since I thought that you might not know about the more generally accepted nomenclature. If you choose to keep doing it the other way, fine. But at least it's an informed decision, granted one of very minor importantce.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 25 Nov 2002 3:26 pm

I'll sleep easier now....

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 25 Nov 2002 3:41 pm

zzzzz ...[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 25 November 2002 at 03:43 PM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 25 Nov 2002 3:47 pm

Shouldn't we both be practising?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 25 Nov 2002 3:48 pm

[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 25 November 2002 at 03:50 PM.]