C6 - moving a 'pedal' to a 'knee'(?)

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 21 Nov 2002 7:02 am

In an effort to eliminate using both feet on the pedals (something I don't enjoy much!), I'm considering putting one of the 'principal' pedals (5,6 or 7) on to a knee-lever.

I know some of you do this already - I'd like to hear what suggestions you might have.

Currently, my 'knees' are: MKL(-3rd), MKR(+3rd and 7th), RKL(-4th) and RKR(+4th and 8th). I'd consider an 'MKV' for the 'pedal swap' - which pedal would YOU move to a 'knee'?

Many thanks!

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Roger Rettig

Jerry Erickson · Post by **Jerry Erickson** » 21 Nov 2002 7:40 am

Hi Roger,
bOb has Paul Franklin's setup in the tunings
link and if I remember correctly he put the "boo-waa" pedal(P8 on most guitars) on his LKL. I've thought about doing that, but haven't yet tried it.
Jerry

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 21 Nov 2002 7:48 am

On my universal, I have the B6 C pedal on a knee lever, since this also functions as an E9 change. I lower the 8th string and raise the 2nd string (which is tuned to C#) to D. In order for this to work on the B6 I also have to release the E-Eb lever. It's a little cumbersome but it works.

Among the advantages of doing this is that I can hit the B and D pedals together without taking my right foot off the volume pedal.

It makes sense on a U-12, but I don't know it it does on a C6.

Bill Cunningham · Post by **Bill Cunningham** » 21 Nov 2002 8:17 am

Put the boo-wah on LKL. I learned that many years ago from Mac Atheson, Chairman of the Board, Emeritus of Atlanta steel players.

BC

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 21 Nov 2002 9:12 am

Re: Pedal 8 on LKL....

I don't believe this would work for most C6 players as they don't do much boo-wah, but they do play a lot of pedal 7-8 combinations.

The left leg isn't long enough to activate LKL and pedal 7 at the same time, so this change would still require taking the right foot off the volume pedal unless pedal 7 was also relocated. www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 21 November 2002 at 09:16 AM.]

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 21 Nov 2002 9:24 am

I started using C6th P7 on my RKL to keep my right foot on the volume. My most used combination was always P5 & 6 w/the left foot
& P7 w/ my right.....in the particular style I liked on the C6th (lots of 4 note block chords w/4 picks!) That is a challenge for most steels......2 whole tone raises on a KL!
plus the fact that your right foot is already raising the knee higher on the KL which gives you a bit less leverage. My Excel
keyless S10 handles it better than any other steel I've had. The Zum was the best one before this. (It had the helper springs, giving an advantage!) Jerry Gleason uses this change on his Carter! & there are some others that like it! I started doing this change in 1973 & have used it ever since. I also know of folks moving P6 (C6th) to a KL instead which leaves 5 & 7 together.....not bad either![This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 21 November 2002 at 12:46 PM.][This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 21 November 2002 at 05:10 PM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 21 Nov 2002 10:31 am

Listen to Doug, an old Pro. I also had P7 on my D10 Carter, and now I have P7 on my MSA 12 string "universal". Along with Doug, I find that P7 on RKL and P 5 & 6 are my Home base,for C6, B6, E6 or any sixth tuning. !0 string or 12.

On my "Full Bore" 12 string tuning, I use that RKL(P7) also for the usual C pedal on E9, and I use the Boowah on my LKL which is also the E to F's on my E6 base tuning and the E to Eb's for both E9 side and usual C to B on C6.I use 4 picks as Maurice had me do it in 1968. Works good for me...al

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Nov 2002 10:48 am

I prefer P6 on a lever, both for 10-string C6 and U-12. (setups on my website below)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 21 Nov 2002 11:05 am

The biggest reason I had for using two feet on C6 was to get the D note on the 3rd string in conjunction with pedal 5. Once I put an open D string on as my top string (which I believe the majority of players do), it removed 90% of the reason for using two feet. As far as putting pedals 5,6, or 7 on a knee lever I know that some players have done it, put I don't understand how it can be 100% effective. Pedals 5,6,7, at least the way I use them, work very similarly to pedals A,B,C on E9. 5,6 go together (just like A,B), and 6,7 (like B,C) go together. BTW, I think that with the use of the D string on top, and the more sophisticated copedents with multiple knee levers, playing with two feet has gone the way of the bar slant. It may look cool, but really isn't needed. Of course, I'm sure a few people will have something to say about that last remark. All IMO.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 21 Nov 2002 11:19 am

..bbbut if you use RKL for your 7th pedal, what do you use to lower your "E"'s on the E9 neck?

www.genejones.com

Scott Howard · Post by **Scott Howard** » 21 Nov 2002 11:27 am

I like pedal 7 on RKL and standard C6th Knee Lever on RKR as they would never be used together.I just got my new Williams Crossover and it is this way.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 21 Nov 2002 11:45 am

Scott, I use them both together to get a split similar to E9 P3 combined with lowering the E's. On C6 open you get a nice moving D-C#-C-B.

I'm surprised that you have five C6 pedals on your Williams Crossover and still put a pedal change on a knee. What do your pedals do?

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 21 Nov 2002 12:43 pm

Hi Gene & all...not everybody, but a few use RKR to lower the Es. On my Zum I had E9...LKL
Es to F & RKR Es to Eb.....not the way everyone else does it, but it worked for me.
These same KLs on C6....LKL 4 to Bb & RKR 3 to B. On the Zum I could handle both necks w/one KL as long as I stayed w/3 strings changing. When you added the 4th change I was in trouble.....I don't like them too stiff! X-over here I come!

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 21 Nov 2002 12:51 pm

OOPS! just noticed my post mentioned "some use P5 on a KL." After I read Jeff's post, I re-read mine. Jeff is right....I didn't mean
P5.....& I edited it to read P6. I think Bob
(NY pedal steel president, but I never can spell his name right, sorry) has the std C6th P6 on a KL as Jeff suggests!
By the way Thanks, Al for calling me an "old pro", but I'm not! I'm just old!!
[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 21 November 2002 at 01:17 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 21 Nov 2002 12:51 pm

I have the P8 changes on my LKL. I use it a lot with P5 (actually P2 on my guitar, but that's another story...).

It feels real natural to me. The P8 changes are the C6th equivalent of the E9th 'F' lever, which I also have on LKL.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 21 Nov 2002 1:25 pm

b0b, P8 changes are the c6th equivalent of the E9 F lever???? I thought the F lever raised the root notes (E strings 4 &

a half tone to F?? When we were talking about P8 I had supposed we were talking about the boo-wah pedal. Granted it does raise the one root note (string 7, a C) a half tone to C#, but it doesn't stop there? It changes 2 other strings also doesn't it?? It doesn't raise the 3rd string also a root note to C# does it? I haven't used this change on my guitars so I may be out in left field here?? Someone please help my understanding of this...b0b?[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 21 November 2002 at 01:27 PM.]

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 21 Nov 2002 2:16 pm

I have P8 on LKL and P7 on RKR

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Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 21 Nov 2002 2:25 pm

I have Larry Bell's old D-10 Emmons. He had it setup with P6 on LKR. Since this guitar was my first C6 neck, it feels quite natural to me and a few of the the combinations are made quite easy without the use of my right foot.

Brad Sarno

Scott Howard · Post by **Scott Howard** » 21 Nov 2002 2:44 pm

Jim , As I have stated before I don't know anything about C6th.I was going on what was said in a Jeff Newman video he said you would never use them together,but as times change I can see a split could be usefull.
Before I ordered the crossover I took a
Sho-Bud with 3&2 and set it up for the 6th.Since I only had 3 pedals 8,5&6 went on the floor in that order and 7 RKL standard knee lever RKR. This game me enough to work with and start learning and I liked it.
I do not know how to post my new tuning but I will email it to you.A friend helped me with the C6th as I am just starting on that neck.[This message was edited by Scott Howard on 21 November 2002 at 02:44 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Nov 2002 5:29 pm

If you don't mind a knee lever being a little "stiff", pedal 5 works great on a knee lever.

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 21 Nov 2002 5:46 pm

It makes a good sense to put P8 on a lever so you can use it with P5 to get another 6th
tuning, especially used with the other lever which raises the 3rd string to C#. In other words, it gives you an A6 chord/tuning to work out of.
~~W.C.~~

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 21 Nov 2002 6:42 pm

Here's how I look at it, Doug:

On the E9th, the F lever is often used to make a C# major chord. C# is three half-steps below E. On the C6th, P8 is often used to make an A major chord. A is three half-steps below C.

On my 12 string E9th, my F lever lowers my low E to C#. This is the same as the P8 change that lowers the low C to A.

On extended E9th, the 11th string is already a G# (the fifth of the C# chord). On the C6th, P8 lowers the F string half a step to E (the fifth of the A chord).

It's true that P8 doesn't raise the high C. I have that change on RKR. Sometimes I wish I had that split flexibility on the E9th, too.

So you see that P8 and the F lever are very similar in function. Putting the P8 changes on LKL matched my instinctive reflexes just fine.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Rex Thomas · Post by **Rex Thomas** » 21 Nov 2002 6:58 pm

Duane Marrs put P4 (4 & 8 raise +1, with a 1/2 stop as well) on LKL of my 'new' Sho-Bud back in '72.
Got that same change on my present guitar. Wouldn't have it any other way.
But I'm enjoying seeing the different setups. Good ideas out there.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 21 Nov 2002 8:42 pm

Jeff- You are right about that high D. Along with the C to B Knee. You will hardly ever use P7.
So most of the time won't need both feet on the pedals.
But I still like the moving whole tone from B to A sound of the P7 with either one P5.P6 or both together, for dim....al )

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 22 Nov 2002 7:57 am

Having started this 'thread', I'm now having my doubts about making a change.

The most frequent 'two-footed' move is probably 5 and 7 and, as Jeff points out, the 'D' first string has 'replaced' it to a large extent.

Despite this, it's interesting that Buddy still advocates getting the '13th' chord using two feet in his excellent 'Basic C6' (thanks for that, BE - it's been my salvation, with its simple logic and clear layout!) - the same thing's 'available' with pedal 5 and the 3rd string 'lower', but the voicing is warmer with the old method. I wonder if that's why he does it that way, or is it because old habits die hard?

To b0b - I lower the 3rd with my MKL and raise the 3rd and 7th with my MKR; this gives me a familiar 'E9 reference'(I play 'Day'). Combining my MKR with pedal 8 gives a full 'A7th' chord on nine strings, but the 'knee' on its own gives me the same chord on strings 8 thru 2 - a lot like the 'F' lever; that 'familiarity' has been a big help as I've come to C6 very late in life...

Speaking of putting the 8th pedal on a knee-lever - isn't this a tall order for a 'knee' with that C to A drop? Would my LeGrande do it? Just wondering.

Many thanks for all your thoughts!

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Roger Rettig