Emmons 14 holer cracking ?

Doug Jones · Post by **Doug Jones** » 18 Nov 2002 6:03 pm

Perhaps some of you Lashley LeGrande II + III players have experienced this problem: On my E9 LKR, a rod from the bottom of the lever pulls a 14 hole bellcrank on the crosshaft that lowers my E's to Eb. About every 8+ months, that bellcrank develops a crack at the base. As a result, the full pull is no longer possible and turning in the hex tuners just makes it worse. I want to replace it with a stouter/sturdier bellcrank. Bobbe suggests a GFI bellcrank. Any other reccomendations and has anyone else experienced this prob? Thanks

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 18 Nov 2002 8:40 pm

I have (4) changes per knee lever on both my (RKR) and (RKL).Needless to say they get a good workout.However I've never broke a 14 hole bellcrank.

The E's to Eb knee should be a fairly soft Knee.If it's not,look into backing off on the lower return springs.I set mine where they are just tight enough to hold the lower finger against the stop when the C pedal is pressed.I raise both 4&8 a whole tone with pedal C.All the LeGrandes that I've seen. leave the factory with the springs set a little tighter than they have to be.And if you bought the guitar used.One or both springs may have been replaced.A lot of guys over tightin these springs when they replace them.Just my 2 cents.---------------------bb

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 18 Nov 2002 9:35 pm

The extra stress on the bellcrank is caused by a slightly over-pull adjustment on the lever stop itself. The changer fingers reach the end of their stop, but the knee lever goes a little further. Also, the bellcranks have an optimum pulling range that should not extend too far left or right. Check your stop, at best it should be on the lever itself and be absolutely positive...once you hit it, that knee lever should be immoveable. Line your bellcranks up at full stop so they are at least 90 degrees to the guitar body. Properly adjusted, Emmons bellcranks do not break....under normal stress. Just for an example, I have had LeGrande's since their inception and have never broken one....but repaired many for other people. It is not difficult for the average player to get their guitar out of adjustment over time....on any guitar. The important thing is to educate yourself about your instrument to avoid future mishaps. What it comes down to, is, if you have this problem.....your guitar is out of adjustment. If you're unfamiliar with the workings, take your guitar to a qualified Emmons tech....to find one in your area, call Ron Jr. at Emmons.....don't let just anyone work on your guitar, they are too darn expensive.[This message was edited by Jeff Peterson on 18 November 2002 at 09:38 PM.][This message was edited by Jeff Peterson on 18 November 2002 at 09:43 PM.]

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 18 Nov 2002 10:32 pm

(Take your guitar to a qualified Emmons tech)

GFI bellcrank?

Martin Weenick · Post by **Martin Weenick** » 19 Nov 2002 1:41 am

Jeff P. I agree with you, but Emmons desparately needs a technical manual for it's owners. I love my LeGrande III but it would sure be nice to have a manual , especially with the counterforce and compensator system. There are no "techs" within a million miles of me, and I cant sleep when I know my guitar is cruseing around in a UPS truck.

------------------

Martin W. Emmons LG III 3/5 Peavy 1000

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 19 Nov 2002 7:41 am

Martin.

I don't have the counterforce.I have a LL-II.But I have the compensators.Emmons sent instructions for tunning the comps.I assumed they did the same for the counterforce.However after seeing so many questions on the Forum about the counterforce and other things.I agree someone should write a manual.I think Jeff would be a good guy for the job.He believes in,and plays the LL_III's.He also has the knowledege for the task.Just a thought.--------bb

john widgren · Post by **john widgren** » 19 Nov 2002 8:05 am

Knee lever stop adjustment.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 19 Nov 2002 9:32 am

....back home where I grew up we only had two-holers. They didn't crack, they just filled up.....

Forgive me...the devil made me do it!

...Now, back to the thread!!!!!
www.genejones.com

Doug Jones · Post by **Doug Jones** » 19 Nov 2002 12:01 pm

Some interesting responses; especially from ole Sarge! I have also received a number of e-mails from articulate and seemingly knowledgable steelers corroborating this condition. I intentionally tighten my drop return springs on E9 strings 2,4,5 +10 & C6 strings 2,3,5,9 +10. I've found with the Emmons LL changer if the return is'nt tight enough, sometimes a hole step raise will take part of the lowering finger with it and resulting in a longer pull to pitch. I am also a firm believer in the drop return compensator for the all-pull Emmons (for some reason, my 1972 Sho-Bud does'nt have that prob). At any rate, on my old '82 LeGrande, where I used to live, I used a friend's machine shop and made a beefier bellcrank and that solved my prob. I have since done some surfing and am entertaining some other bellcrank options.

Doug Jones · Post by **Doug Jones** » 19 Nov 2002 3:09 pm

I forgot to mention I adjust the return springs to the point that when you barely touch the peda/lever, the strings will return to pitch. I've found if you don't do this and you accidently tap a knee lever, the return will be flat until you pedal the string again.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 19 Nov 2002 3:28 pm

Doug.Just curious.Did you check for knee pedal travel over-ride as Jeff suggested?Regards------bb

Doug Jones · Post by **Doug Jones** » 19 Nov 2002 6:27 pm

bb. The lever stops just fine by butting up against a sunken head cap screw with a nylon spacer at the bottom of the bracket that holds the lever assembly. The bellcrank to which the lever pulls is just changer end of 90 degrees. I'm going to replace it with another style bellcrank, just not sure with what yet.

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 20 Nov 2002 7:08 pm

Broken bellcranks are not your problem, they are a result of a problem.[This message was edited by Jeff Peterson on 21 November 2002 at 05:17 AM.][This message was edited by Jeff Peterson on 21 November 2002 at 05:18 AM.]

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 21 Nov 2002 12:20 am

Doug,
I have been playing my L-III for some 4 years now and can say that I have never broken any 14-hole bellcranks. This is my main guitar and I use it a lot! That is not to say I haven't broken 14-hole bellcranks accidently by trying to remove one from a cross shaft the wrong way or something stupid along that line. My point is that the 14-hole bell cranks are good when used in the way they were intended. Putting to much stress on any part could result in failure. If you continue to have failure with the bellcranks then you might want to try looking for the problem somewhere else with the bell cranks being a product of what ever else is going on. There is excess tension some where in order to cause failures like you are having. There have been several good suggestions already made here in this topic. My suggestion would be to look for what is causing the problem not the result. I have seen bent "push/pull" fingers, but in every case it was not because the finger was bad but rather because of the system being badly adjusted or from trying to get something that just wasn't practical.
Try going "back to the board" and make sure that everything is "adjusted correctly" and that you're not asking more than what the part was intended to give. Check to make sure ratios are correct, and that travel is correct for the pull you are trying to make. Any part can break if asked more of it than it is designed to do.
In other words, broken bell cranks are a sign of something else going on, not of a faulty part.

Good luck!
Dave

Doug Jones · Post by **Doug Jones** » 21 Nov 2002 2:16 pm

The ratios idea is one to ponder! As you look at the undercarriage while in the case, the lever's pull rod connects to the 3rd hole up from the bottom on the right side. String 8 connects to 5th up from left and string 4 the very top hole on the left. I have string 4's drop return spring almost as tight as it will go to eliminate the lever tap problem I described earlier. It would be possible to change the lever's connecting point higher to eliminate some stress on the bellcrank, however, to keep the overall lever travel where I desire, I would have to bring the strings pull rods higher on their respective bellcranks and I already have St.4 at the top, therefore the travel would have to increase. Which holes do you guys have your rods connected to? Thanks

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 21 Nov 2002 3:53 pm

My LLII is at the gig.Depends on how much knee travel you have.But if string 8 is in the 5th hole(counting from the cross-bar) and assuming it is properly adjusted) the 4th should be in hole 7 or maybe 8.

Unless your return spring is sprung

it is way to tight.It's been (my) experience that the less tension you have on the lower return spring the (further) the string will lower with the same amount of pedal or knee pedal travel.However if the spring is (too loose) it will not hole the (Lower) finger against the stop when the string is raised.Also both lowers need to be adjusted so they return at the same time.The amount of free play or travel you have in your (raise) rods is a factor here.It don't take much but you do need a little.Hope this will do till Jeff gets here. -------bb[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 21 November 2002 at 04:18 PM.]

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 21 Nov 2002 10:41 pm

Doug,
on my L-III, which plays great, the "eigth string's" lowering rod connects to the 4th hole from the cross shaft on the key head side of the bell crank. The "fourth string's" lowering rod connects to the fourth hole from the cross shaft on the keyhead side of it's bell crank as well. Both use the very bottom holes in the changer. This is for a lkr/4&8, lowering 1/2 tone each, on a typical "Emmons style" pedal set-up. The knee lever is also using the third hole from the cross shaft on the keyhead side of the bell crank. The return spring is adjusted only tight enough to make sure the lowering finger "returns completely after lowering".
Can't say as I understand why you should have to have the excessive return spring tightness as you have stated, and neither do I understand why you would need the 4th lowering rod to be connected to the top hole! The 4th and 8th string seldom need to be so many holes apart on their bell cranks as you have stated yours are. What holes in the changer are you using?
Pal, no wonder you are breaking bell cranks if you have the return spring tightened as much as you say and are using the very top hole of the bell crank for the 4th string! That is simply just asking for trouble. Cranking in excessive return spring tightness and then connecting the lowering rod to the top hole is just stressing that bell crank to the max!
You definitely need to rethink whatever it is you are trying to do.You shouldn't need such excessive tightness for the finger to return.
The return springs are more or less subject to the string's tension and can be adjusted without rods even being in the guitar. After that, it is just a matter of getting the right ratios. Since the knee lever has built-in stops, it is only a matter of getting the correct ratio between the changer and bell crank holes so the string goes to pitch within the distance of the lever's built-in stops with only a little left for tuning.
Check to make sure of the correct ratios and don't forget the string's gauge and the age of the string, too! as well.
Your lever tap problem may even be caused from the difference in ratios between the 8th and 4th strings bell crank holes. There just shouldn't be such a drastic difference in the hole positions between these two strings. Watch the changer to see if the 4th and 8th string fingers start at stop at the same time. I can't see how they would with such an extreme difference in their bell crank hole positions (ratios).

Check it all out!
Dave

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 22 Nov 2002 10:07 am

Doug

Bob Simmons is where many turn to with their Emmons guitars.He really knows how to solve those Emmons problems.You can reach him at 205 647-2331.You ought to see the Emmons he is working on this week.It is one more fine push pull,that's again sounding great.[This message was edited by Andy Alford on 22 November 2002 at 10:08 AM.][This message was edited by Andy Alford on 22 November 2002 at 10:09 AM.]

Doug Jones · Post by **Doug Jones** » 22 Nov 2002 10:54 am

Thanks again for all the responses. When I get back from this next outing, I will put the Emmons on the bench and start anew and work with Dave's recommendation. Per his post, my lever is connected to the correct hole on it's corresponding bellcrank. I'll loosen the drop returns and try string 4's pull lower down the BC. BTW, both rods are passing through the bottom hole on the changer. The drop return comps are just above.