Free" Pedal on Universal?

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 30 Oct 2002 11:06 am

The 3rd pedal along with the 2nd pedal gives you a minor 2nd chord (F#m in the key of E). It is useful to do chord melodies. The 6th pedal (lower Eb to D) along with the Eb lower for the B6 change gives you the same chord 7 frets higher. It can also be used in conjunction with the 5th pedal to get a diminished chord. If you eleiminate the 3rd pedal, you don't lose any capability but you can complete the B6th pedal array on a 7 pedal guitar.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 30 Oct 2002 12:49 pm

Karlis,
The C pedal is used for much more than chords. That F#m chord is available with just the A and B pedals -- just substitute the 1st string for the 4th -- or use both for a mi7. I use the C pedal for a lot of fast country licks that are very clumsy with an E to F# knee lever.

A substitute can be found much closer. Back two frets, the Eb lever gaves the same mi or mi7 chord. e.g., E no pedals on 12th fret to F#m(7) with Eb lever at 10th fret. It still does not convey the 1 to 2 motion of the tonic going from IMaj to IIm, or the unison note with the 1st string, which are key features I use with the B+C combination.

I don't recommend eliminating the C pedal, but that's also a conclusion based on how I use it. Like so many things with this instrument, it's a matter of personal preference. I prefer to have all the useful functionality from a D-10 (including the C pedal, but not the traditional C6 P4) -- and do it with 6 pedals and 6 levers. If you haven't seen it, my setup for that guitar is here .

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 30 Oct 2002 2:25 pm

Larry, I have been experimenting with a half step lower of the G# to G and a half step lower of the B to A#. This gives me the Imaj to iim movement for all the inversions. It allows me to do a full chord-melody scale including the diminished vii. I recently began looking at the C6th tuning and found the same thing there. The E9/B6 universal tunings for a 7 pedal guitar always compromise on one of the C6 pedals. It appears that the "C" pedal functionality is already there in the P6 P5 pedals with the diminished chord capability of lowering the 5th scale note.
I think that if you use the "C" pedal extensively, you may want to keep it. I have used the "C" pedal so little that I don't have it on my current tuning.
I have been experimenting with various tunings but am drifting back toward the standard tunings. The E9/B6 universal has a lot of advantages and is well supported. I have 7 pedals so I am looking for the best fit of the tuning which is expressed with 8 pedals on a D10.
Karlis[This message was edited by Karlis Abolins on 30 October 2002 at 02:30 PM.]

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 30 Oct 2002 5:19 pm

With all due respect, elimiating the C lever is a VERY bad idea. There are so many uses for this pedal besides the F#minor chord that I find it absolutely essential. Chord melodys. Harmony scales. Hendrix style 2nd to unison rock licks. Violin effects. The pedal is indispensable. I'd consider a guitar withour one to be inadequate, regardless of what else it may have. It would be like having a 6 string guitar without the 3rd fret. [This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 31 October 2002 at 03:16 AM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 30 Oct 2002 5:20 pm

Karlis,
In B6th mode, try P6+B (you may need 2 feet) for a minor inversion (rake strings 9-5), used in the same "chord melody" manner as the G# to G lower.
~pete b.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 31 Oct 2002 8:39 am

I'm with Mike on this one! IMHO, the "C" pedal is the 3rd or 4th most important change on the tuning. It's much more important for licks than it is for chords. (Minor chords are scattered everywhere.) The licks you can get with this pedal are priceless.

However, it's great if you decide to eliminate this change...it'll really help my playing stand out that much more!

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 31 Oct 2002 11:14 am

Donny, Do you have tab examples of licks you use the C pedal on?

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 31 Oct 2002 6:45 pm

Karlis - Many E9/B6 Uni guitars have only 7 pedals. Have you checked out Jeff Newman's set up? I believe he uses 7 pedals. A lot of folks have dropped the pedal that raises the G#'s a whole step.

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 3 Nov 2002 10:55 am

Pete, Lee, Thanks a lot for the suggestions. Right now I,m trying to make sense of the different U12 tunings for 7x5. It seems that they are similar. Some keep pedal 8, some keep pedal 7. Jeff Newman moves pedal 8 to 4. The knees are all different. I want to start learning the C6 stuff but I don't which pedals to keep.

Karlis

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 3 Nov 2002 11:34 am

FWIW, Jerry Garcia used the C pedal alot!

I like Newmans S12U setup myself, although I too have ditched the official C pedal for E to F# raise on a lever.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 3 Nov 2002 2:40 pm

YOu can get some of the C pedal stuff this way. Say you're in the key of G. Instead of using the 3rd pedal at the 3rd fret, just go up to the 8th fret and lower the 4th string with your knee lever. Then use your A pedal which raises the 5th string. I've been doing this for a long time and it works OK for a lot of stuff. It's not quite as twangy as raising the 4th string though.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 3 Nov 2002 2:43 pm

You can get some of that C pedal stuff this way. Say you're in the key of G. Instead of using the C pedal at the 3rd fret, go to the 8th fret with the E's lowered and use the A pedal instead. I've been doing this for a long time and it works OK. It's not quite as twangy as the C pedal though.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.