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Topic: Pointless rebuilds |
richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 5 Oct 2012 3:51 am |
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Where's the logic in sending a pedal steel, in perfect working order, for a rebuild ?
It'll come back rebuilt to factory settings, with maybe a shiny undercarriage.
If any of my steels were sent away for a rebuild, it would be a retrograde step, as their playability would be seriously compromised by being reset to factory standards. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Oct 2012 5:50 am
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There's a significant difference between "good working order" and being "perfectly adjusted". Builders, because of time/money/volume limitations, simply can't take endless time to set one up to perfectly match a particular player. Of course, they usually do build to some minimum standard, a sort of compromise that lets the instrument be very playable...but there's always room for improvement.
Also, a lot players are inclined to tinker, tweak, and adjust, and they have ability and skill to improve an instrument while others do not. Those who have infinite patience, talent, and experience can improve the instrument to their own liking. Others, who have only an inkling of knowledge and ability, sometimes go ahead and modify and adjust anyway, often to the detriment of the playability of the instrument. I would imagine that a lot of newer guitars that are sent for a rebuild are victims of these "well-intentioned, but poorly-schooled" mechanics.  |
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Lynn Stafford
From:
Ridgefield, WA USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2012 7:17 am Re: Pointless rebuilds
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| richard burton wrote: |
Where's the logic in sending a pedal steel, in perfect working order, for a rebuild ?
It'll come back rebuilt to factory settings, with maybe a shiny undercarriage.
If any of my steels were sent away for a rebuild, it would be a retrograde step, as their playability would be seriously compromised by being reset to factory standards. |
Richard,
I would have to agree with your first comment, assuming the guitar was in "perfect working order", but... most of them are not.
As Donnie said: "There's a significant difference between "good working order" and being "perfectly adjusted". Builders, because of time/money/volume limitations, simply can't take endless time to set one up to perfectly match a particular player. Of course, they usually do build to some minimum standard, a sort of compromise that lets the instrument be very playable...but there's always room for improvement."
I have experienced this time and time again, while setting up guitars that folks bring me that they have just purchased from the manufacturer!
As far as rebuilds go, I tend to provide different levels of that type of thing, depending on the condition of the actual guitar in question and the extent of the customer's wants, needs and budget. For example; earlier this year I sold a '66 Emmons D-10 bolt-on to a customer in Texas that just wanted a great sounding/playing, dependable guitar that was not necessarily a show piece. With that in mind, I disassembled and thoroughly cleaned the under carriage/changers, etc. but left the bright aluminum parts on the guitar (end plates, necks, etc.) and just hand polished it all myself as best I could. My customer knew in advance what he was getting and is very happy with the guitar (and he saved himself a few hundred dollars in labor). It sounds great, is set up properly to play well and it should last and be dependable for many years to come.
_________________
Best regards,
Lynn Stafford
STEEL GUITAR WEST
http://www.steelguitarwest.com
Steel Guitar Technician (Restoration, Set-up, Service and Repair work)
Previous Emmons Authorized Dealer & Service Technician (original factory is now closed)
ZumSteel Authorized Service Technician
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 5 Oct 2012 12:48 pm
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| Two expert opinions above with much wisdom. As usual, Donny is correct. Lynn Stafford is a master rebuilder. People tinker with their guitars in their basement, get them out of regulation, then put them on the Forum for sale. If they would have taken it to a qualified mechanic to begin with it would be done right. Huge difference. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Oct 2012 1:38 pm Re: Pointless rebuilds
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| richard burton wrote: |
| Where's the logic in sending a pedal steel, in perfect working order, for a rebuild ? |
If it were in perfect working order, it would not need to be rebuilt. Adjustment is a whole new topic, however. I think that's really what you are getting at, Richard?
_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net |
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john widgren
From:
Wilton CT
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Posted 6 Oct 2012 6:39 am Set Up
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A precision set up (even on a new guitar) makes a big difference.
When good enough is not good enough.
It's what I do.
JW
_________________
Steel Guitar Services:
Live performance and recording. Instruments, repairs and lessons. Fresh bait/discount sushi.
(203) 858-8498
widcj@hotmail.com |
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Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2012 7:09 pm
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| In 2006, I took my 1996 Carter D10 into Bud for a "100,000" mile check up. One hour later he blessed it for another "100,000" miles and answered some questions. Sometimes they don't need a rebuild but a re-check and maybe an adjustment. I still have that 1996 plus a 2003 but the '96 is the main and I would not part with it. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Oct 2012 10:11 am
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I think the difference between rebuild and setup is misunderstood. Thus the original topic is missed.
_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2012 10:38 am
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I'm playing a recent rebuilt Emmons S10 I got from Lynn, specifically because of his reputation for... great rebuilds. I honestly don't know exactly what the "before" condition was, but when I got it it was a nicely aged shell with totally sweet 2012 guts and setup. Exactly like having a brand new guitar with 35 years of tonal break-in.
I assume from everything I've heard and read over the years that the various well-respected Push-Pull and Sho Bud gurus would not perform "unnecessary" rebuilds... and the refurbishment of a worn or basket-case guitar to pristine playing condition is a real service to the player pool.
That said, I can't even count the guitars I've bought or worked on for students that have been severely mis-adjusted by someone along the way. A tune-up is a whole 'nother animal.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Steve Collins
From:
Alaska, USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2012 11:29 am
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| This thread has made me wonder something. I play a BMI S10, I have been on it for a year, and it is the only steel I have ever touched. It does everything I want it to, great tone, stays in tune. Here's the bugaboo: having never played another steel, I have no idea how it could (or should) play. I have no reason to start tinkering and moving things around if it is all working properly, but having no comparison, I don't know if I could be driving a cadillac right now. Im waiting for a seasoned player to sit down and say 'wow your pedals are stiff' or 'why do your levers travel so far?" or some such. Any insight? |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 7 Oct 2012 4:57 pm
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Steve, the reason you are not wondering about this that or the other, might be that you have yourself a steel guitar that is mechanically and musically sound. I have worked on, and played, a BMI and I have much respect for this make of steel.
If you have no reservations, consider your guitar a keeper.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 7 Oct 2012 6:32 pm
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Bent, it's entirely possible that he's wondering "is the guitar I've learned on set up right, or have I learned on an axe that another player would think 'my Lord, this is an unplayable wreck?' which can only be answered by him playing another guitar or someone else playing his.
I was lucky to have played three different loaners before buying my Marlen. It was a little stiff, but it was MINE
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lynn Stafford
From:
Ridgefield, WA USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2012 6:38 pm
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| Mark van Allen wrote: |
| I'm playing a recent rebuilt Emmons S10 I got from Lynn, specifically because of his reputation for... great rebuilds. I honestly don't know exactly what the "before" condition was, but when I got it it was a nicely aged shell with totally sweet 2012 guts and setup. Exactly like having a brand new guitar with 35 years of tonal break-in. |
Mark,
Here are some "before" photos of your guitar. As you can see, it was in pretty sad shape when it arrived here.
Here is what it looked like after the rebuild...
I'm sure there are those that would say "just clean it up a bit and play it" but I decided to take it all the way in this case. I'm thinking Mark would agree that I made the right decision 
There were lots of issues with the guitar that I don't have time to go into here, but it just made perfect sense to me to give it a total rebuild.
_________________
Best regards,
Lynn Stafford
STEEL GUITAR WEST
http://www.steelguitarwest.com
Steel Guitar Technician (Restoration, Set-up, Service and Repair work)
Previous Emmons Authorized Dealer & Service Technician (original factory is now closed)
ZumSteel Authorized Service Technician
---------------------------------- |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2012 8:32 pm Re: Pointless rebuilds
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| richard burton wrote: |
Where's the logic in sending a pedal steel, in perfect working order, for a rebuild ?
It'll come back rebuilt to factory settings, with maybe a shiny undercarriage.
If any of my steels were sent away for a rebuild, it would be a retrograde step, as their playability would be seriously compromised by being reset to factory standards. |
I think that to have this conversation all of us need to make a distinction between remanufacturing and rebuilding. To my mind rebuilding would mean returning the guitar with same CoPedEnt that it arrived with unless instructed to do otherwise.
I do not know of anyone that had PSG in "perfect working order" rebuilt.
The majority of people that I know that would rebuild a PSG would rebuild it to the configuration the customer wanted and not to factory specs. When you rebuild a PSG the whole process is all about making the customer happy with the setup. This is what I have done to my own PSG's.
If I were to rebuild a PSG for someone I doubt that the PSG would look much different when I was done than it did when I got it. It would play better and it would sound better.
The things that matter in a rebuild are primarily invisible: disassembling and cleaning/lubing the changer, adding some pulls (or pushes on a primitive guitar), replacing and/or polishing barrel nuts on the changer, replacing ball sockets, replacing swithes and/or potentiometers, replacing a worn changer axle, threading rods, replacing worn/broken bushings. Almost all of these things are nearly invisble unless you turn the guitar over.
I certainly would not devote time to scrubbing the mica, re-touching laquer, or polishing the metal unless these cosmetic-only tasks were desired by the owner; I think that those are tasks which serve only to increase billable time unless the owner specifically states that they are willing to pay the premium to have them done. And yes there are clients that really do want these services, but these services are in addition to performing a rebuild.
I will grant that some people simply do not have an aptitude for setting up a PSG. But doing a setup is a far cry from doing a rebuild. Having a setup done is something that I know some people will have done even when it is upon receipt of a brand new PSG. This makes sense to me because even changing brands of string sets or minor changes in string gauges will require minor changer adjustments.
If someone recieved a PSG in good working order that had a pedal or CoPedEnt configuration that was not what they wanted I would not considder that guitar to be in "perfect working order." For example if I got an E9 guitar with an Emmons ABC (from left to right) pedal layout I would be inclined to re-rod the guitar to the "Day" CBA configuration (other players would desire just the opposite revision). But I would not call this a rebuild because I was not disassembling and servicing the whole guitar; I would call it a major setup because it was limited to re-rodding and swapping a few bell cranks around and testing/recalibrating all the pulls in the changer.
_________________
Regards
-- Eugene <sup>at</sup> FJ45.com
PixEnBar.com
Cole-Luthierie.com
FJ45.com
Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^) |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 8 Oct 2012 5:32 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
Bent, it's entirely possible that he's wondering "is the guitar I've learned on set up right, or have I learned on an axe that another player would think 'my Lord, this is an unplayable wreck?' which can only be answered by him playing another guitar or someone else playing his.
I was lucky to have played three different loaners before buying my Marlen. It was a little stiff, but it was MINE |
Lane I am not into second-guessing people. He put out the thought on the thread and I answered out from my own experience. Of course, yours and others opinions may vary. There was nothing in his post to indicate that he was concerned that people might think that his guitar was "an unplayable wreck".
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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john widgren
From:
Wilton CT
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Posted 8 Oct 2012 5:56 am Pointless
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Another pointless re-build ha ha:
Before:
After
Best JW
_________________
Steel Guitar Services:
Live performance and recording. Instruments, repairs and lessons. Fresh bait/discount sushi.
(203) 858-8498
widcj@hotmail.com |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Oct 2012 6:49 am
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Ok, "unplayable wreck" was poor choice.
More accurately "with no prior PSG experience, how do I know if I have a good, bad, or middlin' steel on my hands?"
If you have a couple hundred (max) in your pocket, a good setup would not be a waste of money, and the cat doing it would tell you it needs nothing if it was a good one. If in poor or decent shape, the change would amaze you.
Howzzat for vague help?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 8 Oct 2012 10:34 am
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Lane, I don't know where you wanna go with this...it's getting further and further from the topic.
All I know is what I said to Steve was out of my own experience with the BMI. Nothing bad was said about either the guitar or Steve, so I still don't know why you are trying to make a big deal out of what I said.
I guess I'll just bow out and say Happy Monday! 
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2012 11:32 am
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I think some confusion might exist over the OP's original mention of the terms "perfect working order", and "rebuild", both of which can mean different things to different people in different contexts.
The guitar I got from Lynn was apparently playable, but not in what he or I would consider "perfect working order". It came out in nearly new condition, ready for years of continued service without further "rebuilding", unless somebody badly mis-adjusts it along the way. In which case, it might need just a good setup...
I have seen several players here mention having their guitars being rebuilt after some years of service, and I presume they are thinking of replacement of springs, clips, tuners, bushings, and other worn parts including possibly changer fingers, removal of bar smoke stains, etc., which separately might be considered a tune-up, but all together represent a complete rebuild.
I would trust and hope that reputable mechanics would advise a client of just what is needed to restore a "working" guitar to top playing condition, and whether the added time and expense of a complete rebuild is truly warranted. I'm sure it's possible some few owners choose to have fairly pristine guitars gone over completely to assure them of like-new condition and operation.
I have learned to maintain and setup most brands over the years to get them playing the best they can for me, but seeing the amazing work these rebuild gurus can and have accomplished makes me very glad they're plying their trade. It's a thing of beauty to see a trashed, ill-used piece of "junk" re-emerge as a wonderful instrument with years of joy and music left in it.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2012 12:27 pm
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As somebody who believes that "perfect working order" for an S10 C6th setup (...urp) requires that the pedals be moved enough to the center that P3, P4 and P5 should all be potentially available for right-footering*, I resent the re... well, you're not gonna find too many of them set up "right" at Guitar Center or at Honest Abe's Good Used Steals, in my experience. Greater minds are needed.
*(yes it does depend on what P1-5 and L1-5 do, natch. Even greater minds must ponder the irreducibles....; sometimes, for a while.) |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2012 6:42 pm
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| Mark van Allen wrote: |
| I think some confusion might exist over the OP's original mention of the terms "perfect working order", and "rebuild", both of which can mean different things to different people in different contexts. |
I would add the terms "upgrade" and "hot rod" to the list of terms which are used differently by different people.
For examply I want to upgrade the changer on my Emmons and also add some knee levers. By "upgrade" I mean I want to replace the changer with a less primitive changer which has triple-raise & triple-lower. But for some an "upgrade" might only mean re-winding a pickup and to add some coil-taps and adding a swith for those taps. But I would call adding coil-taps and a tap-switch "hot-rodding" or "customizing."
"Restoring" to me always means returning something to an original and as-new condition. Where a "rebuild" would mean only bringing all of the mechanicals functionality to as-new condition although not neccisarily to OEM specifications. Or to say this anther way: rebuilding is repairing all of the mechanical issues to as-new (or better) condition and configuring the guitar to its owners desired configuration (paying no attention to the original builders configuration).
_________________
Regards
-- Eugene <sup>at</sup> FJ45.com
PixEnBar.com
Cole-Luthierie.com
FJ45.com
Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^) |
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Duncan Hodge
From:
DeLand, FL USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2012 12:37 pm
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I actually looked up the definition of pointless
point·less (pointls)
adj.
1. Lacking meaning; senseless.
2. Ineffectual: pointless attempts to rescue the victims of the raging fire.
So, by the definition, I suppose that if a steel player sends a pedal steel for a rebuild because it makes sense to said steel player to do so, then it is not pointless. If the same steel player wakes up some morning and sends off his steel for a rebuild for no particular reason, then it would be pointless and the aforementioned steel player probably should not do so because there would be no point in his, or her doing so.
Duncan
_________________
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over." |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2012 3:31 pm I will clear this up
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The best way to tell is go from a Fender Shobud to an MSA there is a lot of difference. I know for a fact now the Fender/Sho-Bud needs to be well something rebuilt, refurbed, tweeked. But you want know until you switch from one to the other
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"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
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