Extended E-9th

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 16 Oct 2002 3:51 am

Why do you like or dislike extended E-9th?Have you found that it fits well into playing with a band?Are 12 string guitars keepers because they are hard to sell?Would you ever buy another 12 string?What pickup do you use on your 12 string?

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 16 Oct 2002 4:50 am

I bought my first D-12 because the price was right and the thought of extra lower strings intrigued me as I was the only lead player in most bands I was in at the time.

Extended E9 allows me to easily play regular guitar licks and some nice full harmonies by simply substituting the 11th string G# for the 6th string, for example 5&11 or 5,8&11. The "Working Man Blues" vamp is readily available on 6,9&12.

A nice side effect on the C6 side is that I have both the high G and D and don't have to change positions to get the "old style" licks.

My C6 tuning starts from the top with F-D-G-E-C.

Recently I purchased a D-10 to fool around with, but don't think it's worth the effort to retrain myself after 30 years on a D-12.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden D-12 (coming soon)=-

Robert Parent · Post by **Robert Parent** » 16 Oct 2002 9:32 am

I have owned several 12 string steels as well as many 10 string guitars. If I were just starting out learning to play pedal steel today a U-12 would be my choice without question. I would get a single twelve on a double body as I like the feel and greater sustain of the larger body.

The extended E9th is nice if you are a country type player, especially if you are the only lead instrument as in a three piece group.

I think the universal is a better fit if you are into a wide variety of musical styles.

The 12 string guitars I owned were all Zums and I had no problem sellin any of them. As a matter of fact they sold faster than some D-10 I have owned and also sold in the past.

For pickups all had stock single coil.[This message was edited by Robert Parent on 16 October 2002 at 10:35 AM.]

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 16 Oct 2002 2:50 pm

Where are all the great thinker's who can enlighten people like me who want to know more about Extended E-9?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Oct 2002 5:07 pm

I've been playing extended E9th as my main tuning for 24 years now, with very few copedent changes. To me, the two low strings are absolutely essential - I feel crippled trying to play E9th without them.

It is great for playing in 4-piece bands, because you can pick up the guitarist's part when he takes a solo and the middle doesn't drop out of the band sound.

As for pickups, I switch a lot. Since I use a Sierra, I can switch pickups between songs easily. If I had to settle on one, it would be the Lawrence 712. It's the most versatile of the lot.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 16 Oct 2002 7:00 pm

Andy-A lot of guys like extended E9 on a S12. Nice to have those bass strings....al

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 17 Oct 2002 12:20 am

I have a S12 ZumSteel 7+7 tuned extended E9
Dislikes: None (or maybe a low B as the 13th string)
What I like: I could easily go from S10 E9 to S12 E9 ext.
The fingering for open/closed voiced triads is logical and mirrored around the 8th string.See tab fingering.
The low strings can be played in combination 12&10 11&9 10&8 9&7 8&6 7&5 harmonizing the pentatonic scale in fourths.
Any kind of music can be played, not only country.
Same low note as a regular 6string guitar.

<pre>
Fingering example.

F#-------------------
Eb-------------------
G#-------------------
E ---------------O---
B ------------O--O---
G#---------O--O--O---
F#-------------------
E ------O--O--O------
D -------------------
B ---O--O--O---------
G#---O--O------------
E ---O---------------

F#-------------------
Eb-------------------
G#------------O------
E ---------O---------
B ------O-----O------
G#---O-----O---------
F#-------------------
E ------O-----O------
D -------------------
B ---O-----O---------
G#------O------------
E ---O---------------

E9 Emaj9 E
F#---------O---------
Eb---------O---------
G#----------------O--
E ----------------O--
B ---------O---------
G#---------O---------
F#---O---------------
E ---------O---------
D ---O---------------
B ---O---------------
G#---O---------------
E ---O---------------
</pre>

If you have been playing D10 before and have a lot of C6 fingering in the right hand the E9/B6 universal tuning might be the best choice.

If not the E9 ext might be the best choice.

If you have the opportunity try both.

Bengt Erlandsen

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 17 Oct 2002 7:37 am

This is growing, because of you all, but we need more input that will help with the other E-9, that has extended,grown on many.Tell us why you use Extended E-9.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 17 Oct 2002 7:52 am

If you lower strings 4&8 to D# and 2&9 to C# you're in B6 just like a Universal E9/B6. You won't have the low B, but you will have a middle C# just like a middle D in C6, and you don't lose the D string for E9. Just add the extra pedals to complete the Universal setup.

Another option is to tune 2&9 to C#, then raise them when needed.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 Oct 2002 9:10 am

I've never played the E9/B6 universal. In a way, I'm afraid of the complex tuning issues that arise as you add more pedals. The extended E9th is tuned the same as a regular E9th - there are no additional positions to deal with. The U-12 adds the C6th pedals, which must be tuned without impacting the tuning of the standard E9th copedent on the same neck.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but I have a hard time resolving these things in my head. I tune the back neck of my D-10 in equal temperament, and I've heard that many U-12 players do the same. I don't want to give up the sweeter tuning of the E9th (which I tune closer to just intonation) just to get jazz chords that I would rarely use anyway.

Since I'm not a jazz player, or even a good western swing player, the simpler extended E9th suits me just fine.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 17 Oct 2002 11:51 pm

Reply to ANDY: Like-Yes-Yes-Yes-E66

W.C.[This message was edited by Wayne Cox on 18 October 2002 at 11:37 PM.]

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 18 Oct 2002 12:20 am

RE: b0b,
Yes, I believe you are over reacting. Anyone who understands the correlation between proper tuning guidelines as they apply to various intervals should not have any problems with tuning a
Universal, unless...unless you have other problems such as pronounced cabinet drop/raise. A universal setup does seem to exaggerate instrument related problems. Also you should consider this:
With a "universal" setup, you have to have a primary tuning and a secondary one. On a E9/B6 setup, the E9 is the primary and the B6 is the secondary. If the root note of the secondary tuning is acheived by activating a lever or a pedal,chances are you will have problems. But notice that with a E9/B6 setup,the B6 is a secondary tuning but the root is B,which is one of you basic strings that is tuned open in E9. In short,this means that it is more stable as a root note for the B6 tuning. True enough,you use a lever to acheive the B6 but you are lowering into the 3rd (Eb),not the root(B). I guess what I'm really saying is: "Go for it b0b!".
You can do it!

W.C.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 18 Oct 2002 6:35 am

I played the E9/B6 Universal for over 20 years and then decided to go back to basics and took some pedals and a knee lever off. It was a very basic extended E9. Since attending Scotty's convention this year I've redone my guitar into a version of the E9/B6 and the extended E9. I kept the 9th string but I tune it to C#. As someone said before it's the equivelent of having a C6 with a D between the lower C and E with an F on the 10th string. I've added the 6th pedals back and am really happy with it now. The only thing I miss is the old BooWah lick on the solo to NiteLife but I do it an octave higher and it's OK with the other things that are available. There's a nice descending scale lick that starts on string 6 with no pedals which is in Scotty's Instruction book which I can now do starting on string 8 with the E's lowered. I think I've finally found my perfect setup after all these years.........How many times have you heard someone say that?

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 Oct 2002 9:05 am

Wayne, I don't expect I'll ever learn E9/B6. When a gig requires C6th sounds, I just take my D-10.

After 24 years of playing extended E9th, I have too invested in the arrangement of the low strings to even consider changing it. I play off of the D string as root a lot. I even lower my 12th string E to D to get a low root in those positions.

Also, I've never felt a need for the low B of the E9/B6. Stuck in my ways, I guess...

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Pete Grant · Post by **Pete Grant** » 18 Oct 2002 8:53 pm

If you really love E9th, you don't want to handicap it by taking out the D string. The universal players who say, "Well, I have it on a knee lever," aren't likely to understand and appreciate the full range of what you can do in E9th with ALL the strings.

And, if you really love E9th, you really want to have a root and a third on the bottom. It adds a wealth of possibilities.

I've been playing extended E9th for even longer than b0b, and I just absolutely totally completely love it, for many of the same reasons that b0b expressed. The bottom two strings fill out the chord. Because of that, you can do a lot more of what a guitar can do, including Travis style picking and Barouque and Classical arrangements. The harmonic oppoortunities are vast, and, since I try to approach some of my playing as if I were a string quartet or a section of violins and violas, it works extremely well for me.

Playing a 10-string E9th to me is like playing a standard guitar with the bottom string missing.

One of my four steels, however, is a double 10. I love it because it has the best tone of all my steels (ZB ser #0009) and was a gift from a dear friend. Sometimes in the studio 10 strings is all you need--but not always. I often bring my ZB and one of my twelves to a session, and decide which when I hear the tracks or the tune.

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 18 Oct 2002 10:22 pm

Bengt, I'd like to see your complete pedal,and knee set up on your Zum. Thanks.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 19 Oct 2002 12:24 am

P1 – P6 played by left foot
P5 – P7 played by right foot
The low E – F# on P3 may be moved to LKV
RKL & P7 is a combination I use a lot
LKR & P4 & RKL is also a combination I like
RKR2 is not a must have. It completes the Chords on the low strings.
LKV can be played together w/LKL1 or LKL2

<pre>

LKL1 LKR RKL RKR1
String LKL2 LKV P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 RKR2
1 F# | | | | | | | | F | | | | | G# | |
2 Eb | | | | | | | | | | | |D/C#| | |
3 G# | | | | | | A | | | | | | | | |
4 E | F | | F# | Eb | | | F# | | | | | | | |
5 B | | | | | C# | | C# | | | C# | Bb | | | |
6 G# | | G | | | | A | | | A# | A# | | | | |
7 F# | | | | | | | | F | | | | | G# | |
8 E | F | | | Eb | | | | | | | | | | |
9 D | | | | | | | | | | | | C# | | Eb |
10 B | | | | | C# | | | | | | Bb | | | |
11 G# | | G | | | | A | | | A# | | | | | |
12 E | F | | | | | | F# | C# | | | | | | |

</pre>

Bengt Erlandsen
ZumSteel S12 E9ext

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 19 Oct 2002 6:28 am

Jerry,

Can you post your tuning?

thnaks,

Drew Howard

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www.newslinkassociates.com
www.drewhoward.com

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 19 Oct 2002 6:45 am

Bengt,

I have some questions about your tuning and changes. When you have time, could you reply?

P4: is the boo-wah change, right? Do you use the 1st string lower to get a Vm?
P5: is C6 P4 (A’s to B’s)?
P6: is C6 P7

Below I am quoting you in your explanation of your tuning and changes:

“RKL & P7 is a combination”.
Q: What chords do you get?

“LKR & P4 & RKL is also a combination”. Same question.

“LKV can be played together w/LKL1 or LKL2”. Again, same question.

thanks a million!

Drew Howard

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www.newslinkassociates.com
www.drewhoward.com

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 19 Oct 2002 10:06 am

Drew

P4 is sort of Boo-Wah but not quite. It changes the Ichord to a VI chord as I see it.
Lower on string 1 gives the 3rd when used in the A+F pos. Or it gives the b5 when used with strings 5 2 1.
P5 would equal C6 P4 , it changes the 3rd to a #4 open pos, makes A+F pos to a 6th chord as I see it.(Also works great together with only E´s to F or E´s to Eb)
P6 would equal C6 P7 It changes The IIm7 on strings 7 6 5 4 to a II7 as I see it. (Adding E´s to F gives maj7 or E´s to Eb give maj6th)

What chords I get depends on which string I see as the root. Different combinations of strings give different chords.
I have some guidelines though.
RKL & P7 change the V6 chord (open pos string 5 2 1 to a II)
LKR & P4 & RKL give a VI chord with 3rd b7th 9th 5th Root 3rd on the top 6 strings.
LKV gives the b7sus4 when used with the E´s to F (LKL)
LKV gives the 13th(6th) when used with the A+B Hold A and shift from B to LKL(G#-G) while holding LKV for a b7 W/13th on top.

Hope this helps
Bengt

Terry Wendt · Post by **Terry Wendt** » 19 Oct 2002 8:37 pm

C'mon fellows... add the low B to the bottom like this FESSY S13 and you have it all!

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TheEarlyDays.com

and appearing regularly...
Jimmy Crawford/Russ Hicks... and Buddy Emmons on Bass! aLotOfSpace.com

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 20 Oct 2002 6:59 am

2P Terry,

Get me a shot of your 13-string for Jerry's website.

Whadya say?

cheers,

Drew Howard

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www.newslinkassociates.com
www.drewhoward.com

Terry Wendt · Post by **Terry Wendt** » 20 Oct 2002 1:19 pm

Hi Drew,

Yes, I remember meeting you in Michigan at a show a little over a year ago or so. I'll get a pic for the FESSENDEN site to you soon as well. Thanks for asking and remembering. God Bless!

2PT

------------------
TheEarlyDays.com

and appearing regularly...
Jimmy Crawford/Russ Hicks... and Buddy Emmons on Bass! aLotOfSpace.com

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 22 Oct 2002 2:07 pm

I've been fooling with an ext. E9 tuning on paper for years. Here's where it stands: <pre>
String LKL LKV LKR P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 RKL RKR
1 F# | | | G# | | | | | | F | | |
2 Eb | | | | | | | | | | C# | D |
3 G# | | | | | A | | | | | | |
4 E | F | | | | | F# | | | | Eb | |
5 B | | Bb | | C# | | C# | A | | | | |
6 G# | | | | | A | | F# | | | | |
7 F# | | | G# | | | | | F | | | |
8 E | F | | | | | | | | F | Eb | |
9 D | | | | | | | | | | | C# |
10 B | | Bb | | C# | | | | | | | |
11 G# | | | | | A | | | | | | |
12 E | F | | | | | | | | C# | | |

P4 is the famed PF P4.
P5 is C6 P6 (V7 chord).
P6 is boo-wah. 1st string lower gives me a V mi. Got that idea from Bengt Erlandsen.
I can approximate C6 P7 elsewhere, so I left that off.</pre>

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[This message was edited by Drew Howard on 22 October 2002 at 03:08 PM.]

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 22 Oct 2002 2:11 pm

Mr. Wendt,

Could you share your 13-string tuning with the rest of the class?

:>)

thanks,

Drew

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www.drewhoward.com