Pedal and Knee limitations of Push/Pull changers

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 Oct 2002 2:27 pm

Could anyone explain the practical limitations of the Push/Pull changer compared to all pull, in terms of what can be done with the pedals and knee levers? I'm especially interested in the situation for 12 string extended E9.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Oct 2002 6:20 am

Dave,
If you know what you're doing, you can get a really complex setup to work well. The 10x10 Jimmie Crawford guitars are a case in point. The action and playability of those guitars I've played was excellent.

The changer only allows you to tune one raise and one lower (the ones that pull furthest) at the endplate, but you can add as many additional pulls as you need by installing bellcranks that have a special swivel that includes a knurled, spring loaded adjustment screw used to tune that pull. So, there are no limitations on how many raises/lowers you can have.

The changer itself may have limitations on how far you can pull a given string. The full throw of the changer has to include the distance required for the max raise + the max lower. Most strings can go up and down a whole tone, but there may be some exceptions. For example, I'm not aware of anyone lowering the 2nd string on E9 to C# and raising it to E. I believe that Mike Cass told me it's not possible. Lowering a WOUND 6th a whole step works on many all-pull guitars, but not on a push-pull.
Like any piece of equipment, there are compromises in the design -- pros and cons. Most push-pull players I know TOLERATE the mechanics to get the tone. I actually think that the mechanism works fine if you understand the basics. John Lacey's website has some great 'nuts and bolts' setup info.

Bottom line is that some changes may be more difficult to fine tune the throw and feel than on an all-pull but, once you understand how the mechanism works, a S-12 Emmons may be the best sounding 12-string you've ever played. I know mine is.

Just my experience.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 25 Oct 2002 7:25 am

Larry Bell, great advice, and in my humble opinion, you are exactly correct. I have built 3 10-10 doubles this year and I am in the process of building a 9-7 singleneck, single wide. The P-P is a very good guitar for doing this as it seems to stay in tune better than most guitars.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Oct 2002 7:43 am

Bobbe's post reminds me that he has some excellent documentation for the care and feeding of the push-pull as well. I have both the written shop guide ('Methodology and Practice' or something like that) and his push-pull setup and adjustment video. I recommend both highly.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 25 Oct 2002 7:59 am

The second string on a PP can be lowered to C# and raised to E. Since a thin string requires more travel to change than a wound string there will be a length of travel on those levers that probably would not be acceptable to most players. Shorter travel can be obtained but with relatively stiff action. The changes should be on a knee that does not also activate anything on C6 if you have a D10. Because of this situation, most players of PP's opt for the lower and forego the raise.

I have both changes on my Fessenden, but not on the PP's.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 25 Oct 2002 9:50 am

I raise my second string a half along with raising the first and seven'th strings a half on my vertical (up) lever. And I lower it a whole tone along with a half tone lower on string 9 and a half tone lower on string 3 on C-6 on RKL. I'd call the action very smooth and easy on the RKL and just a little stiff, but smooth, on the vertical. The travel is surprisingly short on both levers. It had to be short on the vertical. That's what made it a little stiff.
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

[This message was edited by Bobby Bowman on 25 October 2002 at 11:22 AM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 25 Oct 2002 10:29 am

I have a quick question...
If you are raising string 5, B to C# (same exact needle position on the tuner), on more than one pedal, is there any reason to have those knurled half tuners on any of the B to C# raises?
My axe came that way (3 raises B to C# on string 5..., 2 of the 3 are tuned underneath).
I want them all to hit the "raise finger to body" stop.
So just yank the knurled guys and install lock collars on those identical, longest throw, raises?
What is the conventional P-P logic for this?

bill dearmore · Post by **bill dearmore** » 25 Oct 2002 11:50 am

Yup Pete,thats what I've done for 25 yrs. You may have to go back and re-lock every year or so if they slip. Otherwise...good to go.See ya,Bill[This message was edited by bill dearmore on 25 October 2002 at 12:53 PM.]

rhcarden · Post by **rhcarden** » 25 Oct 2002 12:13 pm

MY LKV2 Raises string 1 (F# to G#), string 2
(D# to E),and string 7 (F# to G). (the hit on string 2 gives me a G on string 1. This is a short home-made lever.

RKL lowers string 2 (D# to C#) and string 9 (D to C#). The hit on string 9 gives me a D on string 2. I tune the D on string 2 with the tuning screw for the raise on string 9. This only works if you don't raise string 9. (This lever also raises string 6 (E to F) on the C-6th).

I have this same set up on my all pull 13 string BMI. The p/p works best!

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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7

Chick Donner · Post by **Chick Donner** » 25 Oct 2002 12:22 pm

Not to argue, because it's not that big a deal, but on both my PP D12's I both lower the 2nd a whole tone and raise it to E, and I lower my .020 plain G# (6th) a whole tone, as well as raise and lower the 11th, also a G3, but granted a .046.

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 25 Oct 2002 3:37 pm

"For example, I'm not aware of anyone lowering the 2nd string on E9 to C# and raising it to E"

Mine does it fine

bob

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 25 Oct 2002 7:22 pm

Thanks, Larry Bell and all the others. Lots of food for thought here. I'm getting the picture.