Vintage Emmons... iiish, it's in pretty bad shape!!!

Alex Cattaneo · Post by **Alex Cattaneo** » 2 Oct 2012 2:23 pm

Allright guys, I got some pictures and more info. Hope you guys can fill in the blancks for me.

The good news: it's set-up as an Emmons 3x4 with basically my copedent, it even has a half stop on the 2nd string.

The bad: everything else! The guitar has a bunch of non-original tuners, a hack leg that's straight instead of tilted, pickup doesn't look original, there are 3 outputs (2 on the changer side, 1 on the keyhead side) but none of them work so I didn't get any sound out of it. A control panel was added in the middle of the pad with a bunch of electronics, probably ton control a PA system or the mic or else. The pedals don't look original, the levers I'm not sure... other than that, the guitar is dirty, dusty, rusty and wasn't cared for or maintained for decades.

Check out the damage:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/87959690@N ... 048511801/

This is an SD-10. There are changer holes on the front, so it might have been a D10 at some point...

US Pat # 3447413

Serial number underneath the guitar, on the changer:

173 ST10

So what do you think???

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 2 Oct 2012 2:57 pm

Wow!! I sure wouldn't want to pay very much for that guitar. $500 is about all I would offer because you could probably get that much for the parts.

Emmons used both those styles of Kluson tuners, but never both styles on the same guitar. That's merely a cosmetic issue.

The pedals are Le Grande pedals. My 83 push pull has them. They are the least of your problems.

The pickup looks like a humbucker that I've seen before. It's probably ok, if it works.

It's obviously ready for at least a good cleaning and lubing. It that was done, and you could get output to an amp, you might find that it plays reasonable well. Of course, you might find that it needs a complete rebuild. Highly likely!!

That homebuilt switching box, or whatever it is, seriously devalues the guitar in my opinion. Unless, of course, you could make it work and discovery that it actually does something cool. I wouldn't count of that.

All in all, I'd pass.

Alex Cattaneo · Post by **Alex Cattaneo** » 2 Oct 2012 3:04 pm

Unless it controls the space shuttle, I really don't see an upside to that panel.

I tried to play the guitar and everything seemed ok. The C pedal affected only one string, the 4th one, but every other change was ok. The levers were behaving ok.

I'm thinking that once you take off all the useless electronics and install a new pad, it might be ok.

But a new leg, new tuners, a new pad, electronic overhaul, maybe a new pickup, complete cleaning and set-up, it adds up pretty quick...

Alex Cattaneo · Post by **Alex Cattaneo** » 2 Oct 2012 3:12 pm

Oh, and one more thing: no case, no leg bag.

The owner told me he was offered 1500$ and turned it down... I was not shy about telling him that he should have accepted!!!

Ray DeVoe · Post by **Ray DeVoe** » 2 Oct 2012 3:47 pm

I think that the biggest negative might be the following.

It looks like the leg socket in the end plate may be stripped or worn out. That one legs looks real questionable where it screws into the end plate. ( next to last picture )

As to the second set of holes in the end plate, a lot of SD 10's had the second set as they used the same end plate for both models. It was a double though if there is a hole up through the body for a second changer.

The extra 1/4 inch jack holes drilled in the end plates also subtracts from the value of the guitar.

I would not fool with the guitar even if it was cheap if the leg socket is worn out.
The pedals also show heavy wear which usually indicates a lot of use and wear on the guitar parts.

About the biggest positive that I spotted was the original BL 705 pickup.

Thats my take on it anyway.

Ray D

Alex Cattaneo · Post by **Alex Cattaneo** » 2 Oct 2012 3:54 pm

Thanks Ray, didn't know about the pickup. Is there anyway we can figure out if this was an original D-10 or Sd-10 with the serial number?

Ray DeVoe · Post by **Ray DeVoe** » 2 Oct 2012 4:13 pm

Hi Alex

Im not the expert on serial numbers but I beleive that the ST in front of the serial number indicates a single on a double frame

In my opinion, you would be ahead of the game if you spent a couple of grand on a decent Emmons guitar. Singles come up every once in awhile for that price. I have even seen D 10's in much better shape for as low as $2500 recently.

Parts and especially end plates are not cheap for these guitars.

Ray DeVoe

Mike Kowalik · Post by **Mike Kowalik** » 2 Oct 2012 5:08 pm

I wouldn't buy that piece of JUNK!!!!

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 2 Oct 2012 5:21 pm

Alex, I wouldn't bother with this guitar unless you are a good mechanic and you like projects. It is so cobbled, and so worn... I think you'd be better off to save your money and buy one in better shape. The cost of the guitar, plus parts and labor to restore it would be nearly as much (or more) than buying a new PSG IMO. It's not quite a "parts guitar" yet, but close to it! If you could get it for a few hundred dollars it would be worth buying for the parts. BTW, Emmons used those butterfly Kluson tuners around 1977 and 1978 I believe.

Mac Knowles · Post by **Mac Knowles** » 2 Oct 2012 5:36 pm

Holy crap Alex....I remember when that guitar was new. Whatever happened to it. Here's a picture of it when it was pretty new. I know Jerry liked to tinker around with his stuff. He did some solo gigs after JoAnne quit. He played his Telecaster and banjo etc. with a Rhythm Ace I think, so probably had that little board to control his stuff with. Anyway too bad it's in such a mess. $500 would seem enough for it the way it is. Wouldn't matter to me though as I'd rebuild it anyway in my shop.
Cheers
Mac

PS. Send me a PM if you've been to the old guys place. What else has he got?

Alex Cattaneo · Post by **Alex Cattaneo** » 2 Oct 2012 6:05 pm

Mac, you think this is bad, you should see the Telecaster! Half the original guitar is gone...

Alex Cattaneo · Post by **Alex Cattaneo** » 2 Oct 2012 6:52 pm

I don't think the guitar on the album cover is the same. For starters, it has 6 pedals... and there were no traces of extra pedals having been removed from the guitar I saw today.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 Oct 2012 7:14 pm

Yep, jes keep addin' knobs and switches and lights and stuff, an' prit soon, 'ya soun' jes like dat Buddy!

Alex Cattaneo · Post by **Alex Cattaneo** » 2 Oct 2012 7:16 pm

It's funny but it's also sad!

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 2 Oct 2012 8:20 pm

The make 11-foot poles for guitars like that one. Not even worth $500 for the parts, IMO, if they have to be cleaned off and buffed to the extent they seem to need. But that's just me...

Lynn Stafford · Post by **Lynn Stafford** » 3 Oct 2012 10:36 am

Alex Cattaneo wrote:Oh, and one more thing: no case, no leg bag.

The owner told me he was offered 1500$ and turned it down... I was not shy about telling him that he should have accepted!!!

Right you are, Alex!!

With a serial number like that, I would have to assume it's an original ST-10 and not a conversion, but I'd need to see more extensive photos to say for sure. That guitar could be rebuilt to be a perfectly good "player" if bought for the right price. It's possible the leg socket could be repaired with a Heli-coil insert. Given that there also is no case included, even I wouldn't be willing to buy it for more than $700 or so (much less if possible). A nice case and new leg bag would run at least $250 or more and it would need a lot of worn and/or non-standard parts replaced with correct ones, not to mention all the labor that would be required, including possibly some time spent with a capable machinist and his mill, fixing the leg socket in the end plate. It's all fixable, but it would certainly be a challenge and would only be practical to do so long as you didn't spend too much for what's there right now.

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 3 Oct 2012 11:11 am

I'm with Lynn on this one.
It's certainly "fixable", but,,,,at a price. I would say an easy $500 and probably more than that before it's over.
Never the less, if you can get it for a reasonable price (not $1500), say 4 or 5 hundred or so, it would be well worth that IMO.
BB

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 3 Oct 2012 12:33 pm

Not to argue with restorers like Lynn and Bobby, so I'm just postulating on the size of the job. I welcome correction from those more experienced than I.

I guess it depends on how much cosmetic restoration you want to do, but it looks to me like the back deck and probably rear apron are shot on that one. Replace and remica back deck, or just patch it and make a new pad? If you're gonna strip the undercarriage and totally clean and restore, will you polish or simply wipe the gunk off? Will you reflock the undercarriage or leave it as it is? Will you tig-weld the extra jack holes or leave them be?

These things add up, and just doing the basic fixing of the back neck and all the disassembly, cleaning and reassembly sounds to me more than what's been quoted above. To me it looks like a totally kluged guitar. Spending or not spending the money now so that you can resell it later is another consideration. You will want to sell it one day, trust me

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 3 Oct 2012 1:44 pm

Why fix it if it ain't broke ?

OK the dodgy leg needs attention, but a bit of nicotine staining on the mechanicals ain't going to cause any problems.

Alex Cattaneo · Post by **Alex Cattaneo** » 3 Oct 2012 1:53 pm

The other thing that needs to be factored in is that I have to either drive a few hundred miles or ship the guitar to have it restored... well, actually, can't ship without a case. So add the time, and the gas, there is no way to make this a worthwhile deal for me.

Plus, it's hard to figure out the exact cost of such a project, as there will be some unexpected problem for sure.

And in the end, it will never be as good (or at least as good looking) as a well-maintained guitar. I'm sure there a nice Emmons S10 out there for me anyhow, so I'm going to keep my money for the right guitar, and spend my time practicing instead!

Carson Leighton · Post by **Carson Leighton** » 3 Oct 2012 1:56 pm

I'm with Herb... However,if you are a person who has a nice shop and has the experience to take on such a job,,then go for it if you can get it for about $500....Things like this are a "labour of love" for the instrument and not necessarily done for monetary gain...
Listening to it on you-tube,,the guitar does have a nice tone,,so that part I wouldn't worry too much about...It's kind of a shame to let such an instrument just go to pieces when it's strings could sing again and produce beautiful music...I would like to see this guitar completely over-hauled....Carson

Alex Cattaneo · Post by **Alex Cattaneo** » 3 Oct 2012 2:00 pm

I would like that too Carson. I'm just not mechanically inclined at all. If someone wanted to restore it, I would be glad to give that person the contact for the seller. Unfortunately, he's unlikely to let go at a reasonable price... that's the other hurdle.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 3 Oct 2012 2:10 pm

Really, just about anything can be fixed with enough time, money, and effort. But in some cases, it's still a waste of time, even if you do make it a restored labor of love. This isn't a wrap, or even an early B-O, so it will be decades befor it's a real collectible.

This was once a nice guitar, then some doofus hacked it up. Who's to say that if you fix it up and sell it, some other doofus down the road won't revert it to the same state? Call it a parts guitar. Save what's good, and trash the rest. Like records, books, cars. or houses...not every one is worth saving.

$:\$

Mac Knowles · Post by **Mac Knowles** » 3 Oct 2012 2:27 pm

Sorry...my mistake putting up the guitar on the album cover. Funny thing is though, I don't ever remember Jerry having any other Emmons guitar than the one with the 6 pedals. For sure though, the one we're talkin' about I don't think was ever the same guitar.....bit of a mystery.

sylvainvallieres · Post by **sylvainvallieres** » 6 Oct 2012 9:21 am

no mystery Mac,I got the other one he got (the first one 1966)I buy to him in 1990,the guitar was change for 3-floor 4 knee before I get the guitar,he made the change,I have seen a picture of him and Bill Laurence to fix a pick up on

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Vintage Emmons... iiish, it's in pretty bad shape!!!

Vintage Emmons... iiish, it's in pretty bad shape!!!

Emmons

Emmons PP Basket Case

fixable?