Original components: worth the wait?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 17 Sep 2012 3:44 pm

I just heard from my electronics doc (Tom Wagner, Underground Sound, Lawrence KS), and my Boss Tone died by frying one of the transistors.
He said the original ones Jordan used were germanium instead of silicon, and have a much better sound. He said he has a buddy with some that he'll see in a few weeks, or if I NEED it, I could have silicon transistors.
Make sense to wait? I loved the sound of the old Boss Tone.

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 17 Sep 2012 4:19 pm

There is a difference in tone between the two types. I think the germaniums are softer and warmer, the silicon edgier, but I am not positive. Check out the Fulltone site (Mike Fuller) as he voices different pedals with the two types of transitors.

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 17 Sep 2012 4:34 pm

Lane, the diodes used in the old Boss Tones were signal type diodes. Signal diodes are different than zener diodes, or power diodes. I have owned the old Jordan Boss Tones, and I have built a similiar circuit the Hil-Tone. I have used 1N4148 and 1N914 silicon diodes. Also used germanium signal diodes. Maybe it is just me, but I could not tell much difference. I have heard the same story as you, that the germanium sound so much better. To be honest, I think that is a story that has just been spread around. The Boss Tone had two transistors, and they were silicon transistors, one NPN and the other PNP type. Different transistors pass signal differently, just like different diodes act different. I think the part numbers on the Boss Tone diodes, and transistors from the old Boss Tones, are obsolete. So naturally anything obsolete sounds better and is worth a lot more--especially if you are telling a tall tale. Besides there are several different versions of the supposed original Boss Tone circuit floating around. Jack Stoner, a FORUM member is probably the best authority on the original Boss Tones. Just my opinion.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 17 Sep 2012 4:38 pm

I don't know exactly what was in mind, because I don't have it with me anymore.
I believe the board said Jordan and it had the Sho-Bud sticker on it. oops. Sho-Sound.

Kevin Mincke · Post by **Kevin Mincke** » 17 Sep 2012 5:33 pm

Chris might jump in here.....I still need to send both mine to him before they just quit. I have one of each make.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... one+repair

Stephen Cowell · Post by **Stephen Cowell** » 17 Sep 2012 9:54 pm

I'm not finding anyone claiming germanium in the Boss Tone... here's one (very authoritative) link:

http://www.geofex.com/FX_images/bosstone.gif

R.G. Keen cites silicon values here. The two different diodes give asymmetrical clipping on top of whatever clipping the transistors are doing. I don't see a big difference between germanium and silicon with this circuit... the diodes are where the magic is happening. The two transistors are not used in a manner that requires matching.

Here's a circuit where germanium (and matched transistors) makes a difference:

http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/f ... fffram.htm

You can get this circuit to make magic, or poo... depending on the transistors and resistors chosen. Small Bear matches pairs of transistors for sale...

https://www.smallbearelec.com/home.html

I have not tried the Boss Tone but I own a FullTone '69 FF clone and it's every bit as wonderful as they say. I have a buddy that build a FF clone with Small Bear parts and it turned out spectacularly.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 18 Sep 2012 2:11 am

There were several versions of the Boss Tone, with different transistors, according to "The History Of Jordan Electronics". The first issue, both transistors were 2N3397. Second issue, both transistors were MPS6413. The third issue, the transistor part numbers are not list in the document I have.

The one I have has two different Motorola MPS transistors in it (could be the third issue that doesn't have the transistors listed).

Tolerance on components varied widely, e.g, the Z5U capacitors used in some models have about a plus 50% tolerance.

Considering the main thing the Boss Tone does is clip the peaks of the analog signal to make them basically a square wave, fidelity is not a main concern.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 18 Sep 2012 4:35 am

For steel an Earth Drive is really worth a test ride..
Very easy and forgiving to use.
Click sounds good all over the place.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 18 Sep 2012 7:31 am

Chris Mahoney is making Boss Tone (and other Jordon effects) clones. Look and sound is identical.

http://mahoneyguitargear.com/

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 19 Sep 2012 10:21 am

i wouldn't invest any money in that obsolete 'pain-to-use' item. i would imagine there are many better alternatives. i gave my last one away to a deserving (?) friend.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 19 Sep 2012 11:57 am

Chris, I have never found it a pain to use on an endplate-outputted guitar (I don't recall my experience on the MSA I rented for a couple weeks in 82, so I can't speak for apron-mounted axen).
And I've always liked the tone, myself. That's why I'm having it repaired instead of replaced.

Larry Robinson · Post by **Larry Robinson** » 19 Sep 2012 2:58 pm

One main difference between silicon and germanium transistors is: The emitter base voltage for germanium is approx. 0.2VDC and the emitter base voltage for silicon is 0.7VDC. If you sub a silicon transistor for a germanium transistor, you need to re-design the circuit. Biasing will change. I don't believe you can directly sub a silicon transistor for a germanium type.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 19 Sep 2012 5:21 pm

i meant more in the fine tuning touchiness of them.....and the tiny on off switch.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 19 Sep 2012 10:45 pm

I never found the controls finicky, nor did the switch ever give me any trouble. A swipe upwards with the fleshy part of my ring finger would turn it on, and a swipe downwards with the fleshy part of my thumb would turn it off.
And I had guitar pickers try to buy my Boss Tone from me

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 20 Sep 2012 9:02 am

lane, i bet you can appreciate this: years ago i made new plastic cover plates for my rickenbacher bakelite and mounted the guts to an electro-harmonics little muff fuzz (can't remember if that's what it was called) on the underside of the cover. the switch and control came through the plate for quick fingertip access. actually it was pretty cool....years later i finally put the steel back to c6 and stock metal plates.

Daniel Policarpo · Post by **Daniel Policarpo** » 26 Sep 2012 2:40 am

Lane,I don't think you'll be satisfied without that good old Germanium transistor. It's that little bit of "rubber" in the sound that makes all the difference, especially when you have some volume behind you. Once it's in there you won't have to think about it for another 30 years. I love old effects like the Boss Tone. There are some great repros of just about everything these days, but there's something to be said about something you've had a for a while. It's like a talisman.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 27 Sep 2012 7:55 am

I've never seen a Bosstone with germanium transistors? Those types are very old, and were pretty much gone by the mid-to-late '60s. Most had a 5-digit number, and the most common were 2N103, 2N104, 2N107 and 2N109. The Raytheon versions were numbered differently, if memory serves me correctly, with numbers like CK722, CK7233, CK727, and CK729. Bias wasn't very critical in these simple circuits, so as long as you got the PNP/NPN (polarity) part right, they would still function okay. Keep in mind that these devices were meant for distortion, so fidelity and gain problems (from incorrect bias) werent't a big concern.

Also, the Bosstones normally sounded better with dead batteries, so once the 9v battery got down to around 6v, they really sweetened up.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 27 Sep 2012 8:28 am

I dunno, Donny. I just go by what he told me.
My recollection on the batteries is similar to yours too.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 27 Sep 2012 10:14 am

i third the weak battery tone!

Jim Hollingsworth · Post by **Jim Hollingsworth** » 28 Sep 2012 6:45 pm

Hi Lane,
I own fuzz faces with both silicon & Germanium transistors and I will confirm .... the germaniums are a LOT SMOOTHER and "sweeter" (if a fuzz face can ba called that!). I also own an original Bosstone & I can't imagine it "buzzing" the way silicon units do!

If it was me - I'd wait.

Jim

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 28 Sep 2012 7:00 pm

That's what I told him. I'm in no hurry.

Stephen Cowell · Post by **Stephen Cowell** » 29 Sep 2012 3:06 pm

Jim Hollingsworth wrote:Hi Lane,
I own fuzz faces with both silicon & Germanium transistors and I will confirm .... the germaniums are a LOT SMOOTHER and "sweeter" (if a fuzz face can ba called that!). I also own an original Bosstone & I can't imagine it "buzzing" the way silicon units do!

Any chance you'd open it up and take a picture? Are there germanium transistors inside? So far, from feedback here, it appears that the original transistors were silicon. As I discussed, unlike a FF, the BossTone uses diodes for clipping, not transistors.